[Fwd: Re: [Gslug-general] Expert panel for new users at December meeting?]

[Ken Meyer]

Hi, Stan --

Good post, and great writing.  Are you sure you are geek-oriented?

Agreed we need to concur first on who is a "general user".  I consider them
to be people who are computer literate but whose lives, either personal or
professional, don't revolve around hacking open source software.  They know
what a driver is, but certainly can't debug them and don't know that version
24.3.1a beta had an intermittent bug.  So they need help with the details,
but generally understand what the helper is doing.  The value of a LUG may
be the very greatest for these folks, who appreciate what can be done, but
can't fix problems if the install doesn't go perfectly.

I didn't mean to include the parents of some real geek who favored them with
a Linux install for cost considerations, but who have no clue about what is
going on inside the box.  Agreed that you won't see them at LUG meetings.

Could the port forwarding presentation have been by Tom Eastep of the
ShoreWall firewall fame?

	http://www.shorewall.net/

In any event, I totally agree that you can get a lot out of a GOOD
presentation, even if you are not ready to understand and use all of it.  In
fact, when people complain that something was "over their head", I tell
them, "You can at least become aware of capabilities that are available and
begin to create the skeleton of knowledge that you can flesh out
incrementally until it all makes sense".  A lot of folks don't have the
patience to go through that process, and I don't have a lot of sympathy for
them.  On the other hand, it is quite possible for someone to present a
subject using such arcane language and references that it is totally Greek
to anyone who doesn't use the functionality every day, and if they do that
in an attempt to one-up their peer experts, or even just out of lack of
consideration for the audience, that is not praiseworthy either.

I don't want, nor do I have the needed expertise, to indulge in the GUI
wars.  I simply submit that modern applications contain so many functions
and options that operating them through a command line is really onerous,
even if the capability is there, which I think it seldom is in a
comprehensive manner.  Maybe to start it up, but the power of these apps has
really been enabled, I assert, by the existence of the GUI.  Keyboard
fanatics can, of course, still use the shortcuts rather than a pointing
device to invoke most of the menu items.

So I say once more that the command line, shell programs and system
utilities are great to manipulate data, but the data, in the real world,
usually comes from these GUI-centric apps, whether the GUI itself is totally
wonderful or not.  In the classroom, you usually enter example data via some
text editor and then show that you can sort and search it using the command
line.  So, big deal.  This doesn't reflect very much at all on where you are
going to get the data output that you really want.

GSLUG has had many interesting presentations on subjects such as Audacity
for audio editing, MySQL (by one of the company's founders visiting from
Europe), etc.  These are not CLI apps, to say the least, but capabilities
accessed via the CLI may be able to serve them by routing and manipulating
their outputs.  That can wow your friends and really help you out,
especially for repetitive operations.  Totally agreed.

I liked the suggestion that a good application of the Lightning Talk would
be a CLI command-of-the-day presentation, but the full-length presentations
would include the use of a number of GUI apps -- though again, not
exclusively.  All attendees must get something out of a meeting, and must be
patient while presentations are directed primarily at other factions in the
community.  And as Bri has said, even experts can learn new things about
areas in which they have limited experience.

Good work, Stan.  I may aggravate you again just to elicit one of your
interesting responses.

Ken Meyer


-----Original Message-----

From: Stan Dyck [mailto:stan.dyck at gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 3:35 PM
To: kwmeyer at gmail.com

Cc: Gslug-general at gslug.org

Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Gslug-general] Expert panel for new users at
December meeting?]

Well, I guess I have to defer to your experience, Ken, on the who comes
to LUG meetings. It all comes down to your definition of General. I can
only speak for myself and what I've observed.

When I first started coming to GSLUG back in 2002/3 (ish), I would've
described myself as a noob sure, but mainly as a linux (and CLI) power
user wannabe. I remember there was a presentation where a gentleman
(sorry I don't remember who) demonstrated ssh port forwarding. I didn't
understand most of what he was talking about but I still thought it was
pretty cool. And indeed, it is pretty cool.

I now use port forwarding almost every day, all because of that one talk
that changed my life...[sob]. Ok, I'm just kidding now, but my point is
that you don't necessarily have to understand everything you hear and I
still think that the people that show up for these meetings are a
self-selected group that has at least a little bit of an expectation
that the command line exists and is actually useful for something.

The problem with your "walk before you run" strategy is that I don't
think the linux GUI options are clearly better than Windows at this
point, and certainly OSX beats both pretty handily...I'm sorry, am I
allowed to say that here? And here I am without my flame retardant PJs.

The place where the Gnomes and KDEs win is in price (can't beat free!)
and (IMHO this rocks the most) ease of installation via package managers
(Need an application? "apt-get install" away. Ba-da-bing!)

Where linux really wins though is still the CLI. I get more "How do you
do that?" comments from my Windows using colleagues (poor bastards)
based on my pathetic CLI parlor tricks. And mind you, I'm no ninja, I'm
just using a better tool.

Bottom line, if you want to sell your stuff to someone, I think you need
to let em see your best features.

StanD.

Ken Meyer wrote:

> This aspect of a really great overall discussion is getting to be
something
> of a geek's religious debate, even if it is ostensibly aimed at
propitiating
> the newbie crew.
>
> After having attended GSLUG meetings for more than 5 years and having had
a
> central (and eventually exclusive) role in organizing the meetings for
three
> of them, I can say unequivocally that the so-called "General Users" HAVE
> BEEN, and WILL BE, at the meetings.  With all respect, Stan, your
assumption
> is incorrect.  That is, of course, unless the newbs are turned-off by an
> unrelenting stream made up exclusively of arcane lexicon and talk based on
> assumptions of a high level of expertise.  In fact, some will actually
show
> up anyway, since it seemed to me that some of the hard core, bless their
> intrepid hearts, must not actually wake up until firmly ensconced in their
> seats in 3319, thinking, "Damn, here I am again; must be the second
> Saturday."
>
> I have attended meetings of NUMEROUS computing user groups over the years,
> and one of the things that makes me so proud and supportive of Linux
groups
> is the degree to which they typically reach out to new users.  That is
> almost, albeit not completely, unique to the Linux groups; and of course,
> the motivation is not entirely altruistic, since the idea is to render our
> favorite environment accepted and widely available.
>
> The Visual Basic Developers Association's general meetings are usually
very
> high level; they used to have a separate beginners' session every other
> month, but I think that has faded.  Tim Maher used to have an intro
session
> to Perl about every three or four months at SPUG meetings.  Most other
> groups I am familiar with are friendly to newbies and welcome their
> questions, but they don't plan agendas around them, though occasional
> meeting subjects may be high-level and qualitative enough to be
> understandable to most any reasonably computer literate person.
>
> Ergo, if the General User is not coming to GSLUG meetings, I submit that
> GSLUG is not fulfilling its promise in promoting open source positively --
> and not simply by flinging vitriol at Windows, as much as we may distain
it
> and especially Bill G's and Balmy's business practices.
>
> The answer to this debate about CLI vs. GUI is, obviously, that both are
> valid subjects.  However, the "walk-before-run principle" suggests that
most
> of the curious who appear at meetings are reasonably competent with
Windows,
> which is the system on which they were initially trained by default, so
the
> easiest transfer to Linux begins with showing how the GUI is similar, how
it
> is better, and how you can do the things that you normally do on Windows
by
> using Linux.
>
> Then, when one can make his or her way around the desktop and perform
> routine chores, the added power available via the CLI will delight them,
> even if they mainly cut-and-paste their scripts at first.
>
> Someone suggested here, or was it TacLUG, that having a group work session
> would be useful.  That is, bring your laptop and we will install a live CD
> and walk you through some of the possibilities.  That will Jump Start a
lot
> of folks who just feel "at sea" and intimidated trying to do it from
scratch
> themselves.  In fact, the group could look into the possibility of having
an
> occasional meeting down in one of the computer lab rooms at North, so no
one
> will have to bring a laptop; and the session would not be so likely to bog
> down in solving various machines' unique driver compatibility problems.
>
> Much more later, but I need to change some spark plugs before the weather
> goes completely to Hell again.  Keep up the excellent dialog!
>
> Ken Meyer
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: gslug-general-bounces at gslug.org
> [mailto:gslug-general-bounces at gslug.org]
> On Behalf Of Stan Dyck
> Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 1:02 PM
> To: Gslug-general at gslug.org
>
> Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Gslug-general] Expert panel for new users at
> Decembermeeting?]
>
> Oops, I only responsed to John. Trying again...
> We're losing focus here. I think John is right that a power users
> command line panel would put *general* users into a fetal position,
> but...and this is important so it gets its own line...
>
> General users aren't going to be at the meeting.
>
> Courageous folks like John and Violette, who *are* interested will be
there.
>
> I think demonstrating the power of the CLI is a valuable lesson worth
> exposing the those who are brave enough to show up on a Saturday
> morning. Plus, the rest of us who think we already know everything might
> actually learn a new trick.
>
> Whattayallsay?
>
> StanD.
>
> p.s. Speaking of CLI, if you haven't read Neal Stephenson's essay "In
> the Beginning was the Command Line" yet, it's well worth googling and
> setting aside the time to read even though it's pretty long (duh, it's
> Neal Stephenson).
>
> John Locke wrote:
>  > Hi,
>  >
>  > Not sure if I've posted to the list, and I haven't made it to a GSLUG
>  > meeting, but I've been lurking for a while...
>  >
>  > I'd consider myself a fairly expert Linux user -- we administer around
>  > 25 Linux servers, I've been using Linux since early 2000, and as my
>  > primary desktop since 2003. I've installed Linux on dozens of machines,
>  > and got at least a dozen other people introduced to Linux. I spend lots
>  > of time in a shell, generally have two or three shell windows open,
each
>  > with 3 or 4 tabs, and several running multiple screen sessions.
>  >
>  > And I think what you're describing below would send all of the people
>  > I've introduced to Linux scurrying back to Windows...
>  >
>  > *I* might be interested in attending a power user shell tutorial, but
>  > not most of the general users I know.
>  >
>  > I have a client who recently decided to give Linux a try on his laptop.
>  > He's having trouble understanding how to install software that isn't
>  > available in the Ubuntu repositories, and why Moneydance can't save his
>  > files in /opt. I suggested he attend a GSLUG event to learn more about
>  > using the desktop (we provide server support, not much desktop
support).
>  >
>  > I think doing a panel for newbies is a great idea, and I'd certainly be
>  > willing to sit on it... I think shell stuff should be saved for
>  > something clearly labeled "Power User", not newbie... the newbie panel
>  > should cover things like permissions, user accounts, changing
passwords,
>  > installing software, throwing away driver CDs, etc.
>  >
>  > And, while I know this may be heresy, but I think it's important to
show
>  > how to do all this stuff without opening a shell or using a "run"
>  > window. Use Ubuntu or Fedora or something and demonstrate how to do
what
>  > you need to do using the GUI tools. At the very end, then suggest that,
>  > while you almost never *need* to do anything in a shell, that it can be
>  > much quicker than trying to find the GUI tools... perhaps repeat a
>  > couple of exercises previously done using the GUI tools, but do it in a
>  > shell to show how much more power and speed is there... suggest that
>  > they don't need to ever use the shell, but they might want to learn.
And
>  > leave it at that--send those who didn't turn white on to the power
shell
>  > users seminar...
>  >
>  > Cheers,
>  >
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