From john_re at fastmail.us Sat Nov 1 08:23:50 2008 From: john_re at fastmail.us (john_re) Date: Sat Nov 1 08:21:12 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] BerkeleyTIP-Global Today Nov 1 New Videos. IRC VOIP Online 11A-6P Pacific= 2P-9P Eastern Message-ID: <1225553030.32164.1282444253@webmail.messagingengine.com> Join with the global GNU(Linux) BSD FreeSW monthly meeting. - Online from your home or anywhere, by yourself or with friends - Use IRC & a microphone & headset for VOIP (see below) == Great new VIDEOS - See BTG page for times DebConf - Welcome talk - introductory session DebConf - Debian - 15 years and counting Akedemy - The KDE e.V.: Foundation for the Community SciPy - Scientific computing Python workshop - Intro Linux - Kexec/Kdump: Managing Linux crash dumps DISCUSSION: New: UBUNTU 8.10, Kubuntu w/ KDE4, OPEN OFFICE 3 PROGRAMMING PARTY: VOIP conferencing. == BerkeleyTIP-Global meets Nov 1 Saturday 11AM-6PM PDST TIP = Talks, Installfest, ProgrammingParty Topics: FreeSW GNU(Linux) BSD Distros Programming DBs Internet Hardware Applications Join us online from home, or anywhere - IRC Freenode #BerkeleyTIP & using VOIP, Ekiga - (under development) == See the Google Groups for the latest details: http://groups.google.com/group/BerkTIPGlobal ================================================= CONTENTS: 1) MEETING Nov 1 Sat 11A-6P PDST - Global 2) Join ONLINE using IRC & maybe VOIP-Ekiga 3) VIDEOS - Get them here 4) PROGRAMMING PARTY - VOIP conferencing 5) DISCUSSION: New UBUNTU 8.10, Kubuntu w/ KDE4, OPEN OFFICE 3 ================================================= 1) Meeting Nov 1 Sat 11A-6P PDST - Online everywhere Global Online meeting starts during 11AM PDST, IRC up by 12N ADJUST FOR YOUR TIME ZONE: Ex: EDST 3P = PDST 12N See the Google Groups for the hourly schedule. 2) Join Online using IRC & maybe VOIP-Ekiga Join us online IRC Freenode #BerkeleyTIP & using VOIP, Ekiga - (under development) VOIP-Ekiga - Get your own VOIP client working Ekiga - do a loopback test with mic & headset http://groups.google.com/group/BerkTIPGlobal/web/irc-voip 3) Videos - Get them here http://groups.google.com/group/BerkTIPGlobal/web/videos 4) Programming Party - VOIP conferencing Work on getting VOIP conferencing going Get your own VOIP client working http://wiki.ekiga.org/index.php/Fun_Numbers Work on getting a conference call going. 5) DISCUSSION: New UBUNTU 8.10, Kubuntu w/ KDE4, OPEN OFFICE 3 See you online. :) From aonoraha at gmail.com Sat Nov 1 18:35:43 2008 From: aonoraha at gmail.com (Aaron Appelbaum) Date: Sat Nov 1 18:33:05 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Ubuntu, ATI, Compiz, Dual Monitor Fun Message-ID: <90312f880811011835r6d3aca7dt6ffd63e290aaf822@mail.gmail.com> I am hoping that someone on this list is an ATI expert. I just installed Ibex, but I have been having the problem described below on prior versions of Ubuntu. I am not able to use Compiz Fusion desktop effects when I enable the proprietary ATI driver along with dual monitors in Big Desktop mode. I understand that this is a limitation of the video card. When I run compiz from a shell a message is displayed that my resolution is 2560x1024, which is lower then the 2048xXXXX maximum for 3d graphics. Ideally, I'd like each monitor to treated seperately. I don't want a combined desktop, especially since when I maximize programs they cover up both screens. I have Googled the issue and know that this is a common experience for ATI cards. Is there any hope for me outside of buying a new laptop with a Nvidia graphics card? Isn't there supposed to be a dual head mode used for the propriatary driver? Thanks in advance for your help! ~Aaron *Current configuration:* Laptop: IBM Thinkpad T43p (docked with two external 17' LCD screens attached) Video: ATIOBILITY FireGL V3200 ATI Driver: 8.54.3 *Steps Taken to Get to Issue* 1. Install Ubuntu 8.10 2. Install updates (reboot) 3. Enable restricted video drivers (reboot again) :-) 4. Open ATI Catalyst Center - amdcccle 5. Setup dual monitor: Display Manager | Multi-Display | Click on Left Monitor | Select "Big Desktop left of display 2" 6. Click OK 7. Restart X by logging out of GNOME *Compiz Output* Checking for Xgl: not present. Detected PCI ID for VGA: Checking for texture_from_pixmap: not present. Trying again with indirect rendering: Checking for texture_from_pixmap: present. Checking for non power of two support: present. Checking for Composite extension: present. *Comparing resolution (2560x1024) to maximum 3D texture size (2048): Failed. * aborting and using fallback: /usr/bin/metacity *fglrxinfo * display: :0.0 screen: 0 OpenGL vendor string: ATI Technologies Inc. OpenGL renderer string: ATI MOBILITY FireGL V3200 OpenGL version string: 2.1.8087 FireGL Release -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081101/a87b980d/attachment.html From jakykong at theanythingbox.com Sat Nov 1 21:20:44 2008 From: jakykong at theanythingbox.com (Jack T Mudge III) Date: Sat Nov 1 21:16:41 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Ubuntu, ATI, Compiz, Dual Monitor Fun In-Reply-To: <90312f880811011835r6d3aca7dt6ffd63e290aaf822@mail.gmail.com> References: <90312f880811011835r6d3aca7dt6ffd63e290aaf822@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200811012120.45129.jakykong@theanythingbox.com> On Saturday 01 November 2008 06:35:43 pm Aaron Appelbaum wrote: > I am hoping that someone on this list is an ATI expert. I just installed > Ibex, but I have been having the problem described below on prior versions > of Ubuntu. > > I am not able to use Compiz Fusion desktop effects when I enable the > proprietary ATI driver along with dual monitors in Big Desktop mode. I > understand that this is a limitation of the video card. When I run compiz > from a shell a message is displayed that my resolution is 2560x1024, which > is lower then the 2048xXXXX maximum for 3d graphics. Ideally, I'd like each > monitor to treated seperately. I don't want a combined desktop, especially > since when I maximize programs they cover up both screens. > > I have Googled the issue and know that this is a common experience for ATI > cards. Is there any hope for me outside of buying a new laptop with a > Nvidia graphics card? Isn't there supposed to be a dual head mode used for > the propriatary driver? > > Thanks in advance for your help! > ~Aaron > > > *Current configuration:* > Laptop: IBM Thinkpad T43p (docked with two external 17' LCD screens > attached) > Video: ATIOBILITY FireGL V3200 > ATI Driver: 8.54.3 > > *Steps Taken to Get to Issue* > 1. Install Ubuntu 8.10 > 2. Install updates (reboot) > 3. Enable restricted video drivers (reboot again) :-) > 4. Open ATI Catalyst Center - amdcccle > 5. Setup dual monitor: Display Manager | Multi-Display | Click on Left > Monitor | Select "Big Desktop left of display 2" > 6. Click OK > 7. Restart X by logging out of GNOME > > *Compiz Output* > Checking for Xgl: not present. > Detected PCI ID for VGA: > Checking for texture_from_pixmap: not present. > Trying again with indirect rendering: > Checking for texture_from_pixmap: present. > Checking for non power of two support: present. > Checking for Composite extension: present. > *Comparing resolution (2560x1024) to maximum 3D texture size (2048): > Failed. * > aborting and using fallback: /usr/bin/metacity > > *fglrxinfo * > display: :0.0 screen: 0 > OpenGL vendor string: ATI Technologies Inc. > OpenGL renderer string: ATI MOBILITY FireGL V3200 > OpenGL version string: 2.1.8087 FireGL Release I can't claim to be an ATI expert (I had a laptop with ATI for a couple years; but it only had one monitor), but I see a couple of things to think about right off the bat, maybe they'll help :) Is 2560x1024 *really* smaller than 2048x*? It looks to be about 500 pixels too wide. I think that compiz requires smaller than a certain number of pixels (someone please confirm this), so this might not be the end of the world, but certainly something to look into. The compiz output you provided seems to indicate that the maximum resolution failed. Have you tried changing the resolution and seeing if it works? Your compiz output says that xgl isn't present. I know that with nVidia cards/driver, this generally means compiz won't work. Might have more than one problem to solve. Treating the two monitors as seperate, in my experience, means running two separate and distinct X sessions -- which means that the clipboard isn't shared, the programs can't be moved easily between monitors, and alt+tabbing your way through programs on separate monitors doesn't work. It might not be quite what you want (but make up your own mind about that). What I think you want is Xinerama, or at least ATI's implementation of it, which I think is what you were already fiddling with. I know that the maximizing-to-both-screens problem can be solved, at least with nVidia cards (I'm sitting in front of two monitors right now, treated as one big desktop, but all the windows maximize to the side they're on, not across both monitors). Xinerama on its own, by the way, can't do OpenGL (problem in the X11 DRI implementation or something like that), so you don't want to configure it in xorg.conf if you plan to use compiz. Could you send your /etc/X11/xorg.conf file? (sorry this wasn't much help yet; I'm hoping this will be a springboard to help find the solution, by ruling out possibilities) -- Sincerely, Jack Mudge jakykong@theanythingbox.com From jamesthefishy at gmail.com Sun Nov 2 16:33:33 2008 From: jamesthefishy at gmail.com (james michael) Date: Sun Nov 2 16:30:50 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Linux Education In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <490E46DD.5080009@gmail.com> Hello, I had just made a program called fushi which allows users to learn the command in a safe and effective environment. http://fushi.sf.net I also have a project called pulpie which is learning community that uses ssh and irc as well as many other tools to teach learning. http://pulpie.ath.cx Jeremiah T. Gray wrote: > Hey all, > > I remember a thread on the list a few months ago about offering > classes to teach new users about Linux. What's the status on this > project? I'd like to get involved. > > Thanks, > Jeremiah > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jamesthefishy.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 127 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081102/ce0dcd42/jamesthefishy.vcf From travis.eeepc at gmail.com Sun Nov 2 17:49:12 2008 From: travis.eeepc at gmail.com (Travis) Date: Sun Nov 2 17:46:34 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Linux Education References: <490E46DD.5080009@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1231960C329F4CC2835BC1CCAE137814@EeePC> james michael wrote: >> Hello, I had just made a program called fushi which allows users to >> learn the command in a safe and effective environment. >> http://fushi.sf.net >> >> I also have a project called pulpie which is learning community that >> uses ssh and irc as well as many other tools to teach learning. >> http://pulpie.ath.cx One would have to know what this means before they could use it. "Instuctions Download fushi for your system, direct a terminal to where the file is then type ./ then the name of the file which you downloaded. If the binary for your system doesn't work then use the source. " I don't. -- Travis in Shoreline Washington From steven_coles at yahoo.com Sun Nov 2 19:20:49 2008 From: steven_coles at yahoo.com (Michael_Faraday) Date: Sun Nov 2 19:18:09 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Linux Education In-Reply-To: <1231960C329F4CC2835BC1CCAE137814@EeePC> Message-ID: <458911.40876.qm@web36405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Travis et al, Glad I'm not the only one who doesn't understand that. Apparently, there's a few shell command-line typing errors that can really trash a system. If I must encounter them, I'd rather it happens while I'm fumbling on my own unprotected system. If I learned on a protected system, I'd be fretting like crazy when working on an employer's unprotected system. Anyway, many Linux books devote anything from a chapter to a many-chapter section to shell use. I've just started leaning shells beyond the, ?Do this and don't worry what it means.? level. Lots of employment in the business parks around Woodinville and Bothell use the Wind River VxWorks embedded OS. Can't use a shell equals not being able to do anything with it. Regards, Steven --- On Sun, 11/2/08, Travis wrote: One would have to know what this means before they could use it. "Instuctions Download fushi for your system, direct a terminal to where the file is then type ./ then the name of the file which you downloaded. If the binary for your system doesn't work then use the source. " I don't. -- Travis in Shoreline Washington _______________________________________________ Gslug-general mailing list Gslug-general@gslug.org http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081102/82ca7068/attachment.html From travis.eeepc at gmail.com Sun Nov 2 20:24:30 2008 From: travis.eeepc at gmail.com (Travis) Date: Sun Nov 2 20:21:48 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Linux Education References: <458911.40876.qm@web36405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3529DF885A56472E84D09A3A6D9172E5@EeePC> Michael_Faraday wrote: > Travis et al, > > > > Glad I'm not the only one who doesn't > understand that. > > > > Apparently, there's a few shell > command-line typing errors that can really trash a system. If I must > encounter them, I'd rather it happens while I'm fumbling on my own > unprotected system. If I learned on a protected system, I'd be > fretting like crazy when working on an employer's unprotected system. > > > > Anyway, many Linux books devote > anything from a chapter to a many-chapter section to shell use. I've > just started leaning shells beyond the, ?Do this and don't worry > what it means.? level. Lots of employment in the business parks > around Woodinville and Bothell use the Wind River VxWorks embedded > OS. Can't use a shell equals not being able to do anything with it. I want to learn my way around in the GUI first and then in the command line. -- Travis in Shoreline Washington From jamesthefishy at gmail.com Sun Nov 2 21:54:39 2008 From: jamesthefishy at gmail.com (james michael) Date: Sun Nov 2 21:51:52 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Linux Education In-Reply-To: <1231960C329F4CC2835BC1CCAE137814@EeePC> References: <490E46DD.5080009@gmail.com> <1231960C329F4CC2835BC1CCAE137814@EeePC> Message-ID: <490E921F.6040402@gmail.com> This program is being worked on, I just started it at the end of last summer as a project between classes to learn PERL. A lot of people use it to teach others, installing it themselves and having the student figure actually use it. I am working on a way to 1. translate it in a very easy way. as well as 2. make it easier to run. The directions are not very hard to figure out but it is true that it is a whole. Travis wrote: > james michael wrote: >>> Hello, I had just made a program called fushi which allows users to >>> learn the command in a safe and effective environment. >>> http://fushi.sf.net >>> >>> I also have a project called pulpie which is learning community that >>> uses ssh and irc as well as many other tools to teach learning. >>> http://pulpie.ath.cx > > One would have to know what this means before they could use it. > > "Instuctions > Download fushi for your system, direct a terminal to where the file is > then type ./ then the name of the file which you downloaded. If the > binary for your system doesn't work then use the source. " > > I don't. > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jamesthefishy.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 127 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081102/8178fcd4/jamesthefishy.vcf From aonoraha at gmail.com Sun Nov 2 22:32:17 2008 From: aonoraha at gmail.com (Aaron Appelbaum) Date: Sun Nov 2 22:29:37 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Ubuntu, ATI, Compiz, Dual Monitor Fun In-Reply-To: <200811021012.46385.jakykong@theanythingbox.com> References: <90312f880811011835r6d3aca7dt6ffd63e290aaf822@mail.gmail.com> <200811012120.45129.jakykong@theanythingbox.com> <1225601221.15578.17.camel@aaron-laptop> <200811021012.46385.jakykong@theanythingbox.com> Message-ID: <1225693937.6578.10.camel@aaron-laptop> On Sun, 2008-11-02 at 11:12 -0700, Jack T Mudge III wrote: > I would try 1024x480 just to see if it works (granted that it's a really low > resolution, so probably not something you want to use permanently). At least > then we know it's a resolution problem rather than anything else. This resolution doesn't stick. As soon as I log off, the resolution goes back to 2560x1024. When I am temporarily in 1024x480 (i.e. until I log out of GNOME) the monitors automatically go into clone mode. When I select big desktop in 1024x480 mode, the resolution then switches back to 1024x480 mode. > hm... that's unusual; on every system I've worked with, xorg.conf is precisely > where the video settings are kept. I am going to have to do some googling to > figure out where else they could be (because, indeed, I don't see any > settings at all in that file). >From a quick search it appears that the aticonfig tool is used to configure the display settings of X manually. I am going to experiment with the options. I'll let you know what happens. ~Aaron From davidm777 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 3 00:36:17 2008 From: davidm777 at yahoo.com (David) Date: Mon Nov 3 00:40:17 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] OpenSSH question: can I REQUIRE both a password & key-file? Message-ID: <178764.60117.qm@web53708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I'd really like to use both a key-file and still require a password.? The scenario is Windows laptops ssh-ing (PuTTY) into either an openSUSE 10.3 or Ubuntu 8.10 system. I can get it so that the key-files 'work' but I can't make them required.? That is, a user can log-in without having a key-file at all - so long as they user their password. I've set the following 2 lines in sshd_config: PasswordAuthentication yes PublickeyAuthentication yes Any ideas on what I'm misunderstanding or possibly forgetting to set? David -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081103/0af987e5/attachment.html From benjamin at seattlefenix.net Mon Nov 3 01:57:53 2008 From: benjamin at seattlefenix.net (Benjamin Krueger) Date: Mon Nov 3 01:55:14 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] OpenSSH question: can I REQUIRE both a password & key-file? In-Reply-To: <178764.60117.qm@web53708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <178764.60117.qm@web53708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20081103095753.GA20047@seattlefenix.net> * David (davidm777@yahoo.com) [081103 00:43]: > I'd really like to use both a key-file and still require a password. The > scenario is Windows laptops ssh-ing (PuTTY) into either an openSUSE 10.3 > or Ubuntu 8.10 system. > > I can get it so that the key-files 'work' but I can't make them required. > That is, a user can log-in without having a key-file at all - so long as > they user their password. > > I've set the following 2 lines in sshd_config: > PasswordAuthentication yes > PublickeyAuthentication yes > > Any ideas on what I'm misunderstanding or possibly forgetting to set? > David Gotta verify your assumptions. You have PasswordAuthentication backwards. You don't need to set it to "yes" to enable key based logins. From herber at thing.com Mon Nov 3 02:01:54 2008 From: herber at thing.com (Steve Herber) Date: Mon Nov 3 02:30:51 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Linux Education In-Reply-To: <3529DF885A56472E84D09A3A6D9172E5@EeePC> References: <458911.40876.qm@web36405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <3529DF885A56472E84D09A3A6D9172E5@EeePC> Message-ID: I recommend: In the Beginning was the Command Line http://www.cryptonomicon.com/beginning.html I would be the person offering you a nickel: http://www.dilbert.com/strips/comic/1995-06-24/ Use the command line to learn your way around unix. Use a gui when you need graphics. When you want the power of unix, you will use the command line. Otherwise you might just as well click away on the apple or windows gui. -- Steve Herber herber@thing.com On Sun, 2 Nov 2008, Travis wrote: > Michael_Faraday wrote: >> ... > > I want to learn my way around in the GUI first and then in the command line. > From paul-bartell at ubuntu.com Mon Nov 3 07:51:20 2008 From: paul-bartell at ubuntu.com (Paul Bartell) Date: Mon Nov 3 07:48:40 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] OpenSSH question: can I REQUIRE both a password & key-file? In-Reply-To: <20081103095753.GA20047@seattlefenix.net> References: <178764.60117.qm@web53708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20081103095753.GA20047@seattlefenix.net> Message-ID: <2b5bab0f0811030751w53006d9dh361eef8e6456d7a0@mail.gmail.com> Right. setting both to yes does not REQUIRE both, but rather allows both. Generally, its a good idea to just keep your private key encrypted on your local machine, and only allow Key- based logins. If you want true two-factor http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8957 has an okay tutorial. Either way, good luck On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 1:57 AM, Benjamin Krueger wrote: > * David (davidm777@yahoo.com) [081103 00:43]: >> I'd really like to use both a key-file and still require a password. The >> scenario is Windows laptops ssh-ing (PuTTY) into either an openSUSE 10.3 >> or Ubuntu 8.10 system. >> >> I can get it so that the key-files 'work' but I can't make them required. >> That is, a user can log-in without having a key-file at all - so long as >> they user their password. >> >> I've set the following 2 lines in sshd_config: >> PasswordAuthentication yes >> PublickeyAuthentication yes >> >> Any ideas on what I'm misunderstanding or possibly forgetting to set? >> David > > Gotta verify your assumptions. You have PasswordAuthentication backwards. You don't need to set it to "yes" to enable key based logins. > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > -- Random quote of the week/month/whenever i get to updating it: "Opportunity knocked. My doorman threw him out." - Adrienne Gusoff "At school you don't get parole, good behavior only brings a longer sentence." - The History Boys From crash at neg9.org Mon Nov 3 08:37:09 2008 From: crash at neg9.org (Ian Gallagher) Date: Mon Nov 3 08:38:59 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] OpenSSH question: can I REQUIRE both a password & key-file In-Reply-To: <178764.60117.qm@web53708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <178764.60117.qm@web53708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4b5c15340811030837k12e81904v8734722d35912df6@mail.gmail.com> You would want PasswordAuthentication set to no, and then specify a passphrase for the ssh private key when you generate it on the client machine. I'm not sure if you can mandate that ssh client keys have passphrases - I don't know that the server has any way to know the difference. Make sure you don't accidently have other authentication modes enabled as well. You can ensure what types are available with 'ssh -v hostname'. Hope that helps, -Ian On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 03:36, David wrote: > I'd really like to use both a key-file and still require a password. The > scenario is Windows laptops ssh-ing (PuTTY) into either an openSUSE 10.3 or > Ubuntu 8.10 system. > > I can get it so that the key-files 'work' but I can't make them required. > That is, a user can log-in without having a key-file at all - so long as > they user their password. > > I've set the following 2 lines in sshd_config: > PasswordAuthentication yes > PublickeyAuthentication yes > > Any ideas on what I'm misunderstanding or possibly forgetting to set? > David > > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081103/97b1d2bb/attachment.htm From crash at neg9.org Mon Nov 3 08:37:09 2008 From: crash at neg9.org (Ian Gallagher) Date: Mon Nov 3 09:01:37 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] OpenSSH question: can I REQUIRE both a password & key-file In-Reply-To: <178764.60117.qm@web53708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <178764.60117.qm@web53708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4b5c15340811030837k12e81904v8734722d35912df6@mail.gmail.com> You would want PasswordAuthentication set to no, and then specify a passphrase for the ssh private key when you generate it on the client machine. I'm not sure if you can mandate that ssh client keys have passphrases - I don't know that the server has any way to know the difference. Make sure you don't accidently have other authentication modes enabled as well. You can ensure what types are available with 'ssh -v hostname'. Hope that helps, -Ian On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 03:36, David wrote: > I'd really like to use both a key-file and still require a password. The > scenario is Windows laptops ssh-ing (PuTTY) into either an openSUSE 10.3 or > Ubuntu 8.10 system. > > I can get it so that the key-files 'work' but I can't make them required. > That is, a user can log-in without having a key-file at all - so long as > they user their password. > > I've set the following 2 lines in sshd_config: > PasswordAuthentication yes > PublickeyAuthentication yes > > Any ideas on what I'm misunderstanding or possibly forgetting to set? > David > > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081103/97b1d2bb/attachment.html From btm at loftninjas.org Mon Nov 3 09:39:30 2008 From: btm at loftninjas.org (Bryan McLellan) Date: Mon Nov 3 09:36:54 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Ubuntu, ATI, Compiz, Dual Monitor Fun In-Reply-To: <90312f880811011835r6d3aca7dt6ffd63e290aaf822@mail.gmail.com> References: <90312f880811011835r6d3aca7dt6ffd63e290aaf822@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <893823750811030939tf83c544j9db8bc93eb74cb20@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 6:35 PM, Aaron Appelbaum wrote: > I am hoping that someone on this list is an ATI expert. I just installed > Ibex, but I have been having the problem described below on prior versions > of Ubuntu. I share the general ATI hate. My desktop at work has an ATI card and I just miss twinview. I settled for running without compiz back when I was having problems, and I haven't tried to configure it since. I am running intrepid now. I found [1] clearing my xorg.conf and running aticonfig to get the best results, such as: aticonfig ?initial=dual-head ?dtop=horizontal It's the closest I've gotten to twinview. Bryan [1] http://blog.loftninjas.org/?p=179 From technoshaman at liawol.org Mon Nov 3 09:42:58 2008 From: technoshaman at liawol.org (Glenn Stone) Date: Mon Nov 3 09:40:17 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Ubuntu, ATI, Compiz, Dual Monitor Fun In-Reply-To: <893823750811030939tf83c544j9db8bc93eb74cb20@mail.gmail.com> References: <90312f880811011835r6d3aca7dt6ffd63e290aaf822@mail.gmail.com> <893823750811030939tf83c544j9db8bc93eb74cb20@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081103174258.GO13302@liawol.org> On Mon, Nov 03, 2008 at 10:39:30AM -0700, Bryan McLellan wrote: >On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 6:35 PM, Aaron Appelbaum wrote: >> I am hoping that someone on this list is an ATI expert. I just installed >> Ibex, but I have been having the problem described below on prior versions >> of Ubuntu. > >I share the general ATI hate. My desktop at work has an ATI card and I >just miss twinview. I settled for running without compiz back when I >was having problems, and I haven't tried to configure it since. I am >running intrepid now. > >I found [1] clearing my xorg.conf and running aticonfig to get the >best results, such as: > >aticonfig ?initial=dual-head ?dtop=horizontal > >It's the closest I've gotten to twinview. Oof, thanks for the heads up, gang. Anybody had Issues with ATI and a *single* monitor on Ibex? I've got a Dell small-form-factor desktop with the ATI enhanced graphics.... works nice under Hardy, and might keep it that way for a while, but wanted to know if there was a good reason not to switch.... -- Glenn From steven_coles at yahoo.com Mon Nov 3 10:02:19 2008 From: steven_coles at yahoo.com (Michael_Faraday) Date: Mon Nov 3 09:59:39 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Linux Education In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <723916.58224.qm@web36405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> All, As I sometimes need the use a command line or shell scripting in my employment, starting with the GUI was a major diversion away from what I needed to learn. Counter wise, a person needing only office applications need never learn a shell. Linux has perhaps 6 GUIs in common use. As they differ greatly, a GUI user using different Linux incarnations needs a plan for comfort when switching distros. The good news for shell users is the 3 most common derive from UNIX shells. They have a lot in common (at least for the skills my various employers have wanted). Regards, Steven --- On Mon, 11/3/08, Steve Herber wrote: From: Steve Herber Subject: Re: [Gslug-general] Linux Education To: "Travis" Cc: Gslug-general@gslug.org Date: Monday, November 3, 2008, 2:01 AM I recommend: In the Beginning was the Command Line http://www.cryptonomicon.com/beginning.html I would be the person offering you a nickel: http://www.dilbert.com/strips/comic/1995-06-24/ Use the command line to learn your way around unix. Use a gui when you need graphics. When you want the power of unix, you will use the command line. Otherwise you might just as well click away on the apple or windows gui. -- Steve Herber herber@thing.com On Sun, 2 Nov 2008, Travis wrote: > Michael_Faraday wrote: >> ... > > I want to learn my way around in the GUI first and then in the command line. > _______________________________________________ Gslug-general mailing list Gslug-general@gslug.org http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081103/c474a464/attachment.htm From brando.fouts at gmail.com Mon Nov 3 17:06:26 2008 From: brando.fouts at gmail.com (Brandon Fouts) Date: Mon Nov 3 17:03:44 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] ubuntu - FYI only - no flame war intended Message-ID: <609b18560811031706t649e779co6d71d82439b17205@mail.gmail.com> I had time off, so I went to the LPC - Linux Plumbers Conference - in Portland last month. point of interest, to me anyway, was how little ubuntu contributes up stream to the kernel for details you might check out: http://www.linuxfoundation.org/publications/linuxkerneldevelopment.php Individuals are - as you'll read at above URL - by far the biggest contributors at almost 27% and you will note that ubuntu does not make it into the top 30 - I think they Debian was at least twice perhaps three times more patches over the last 2 or 3 years. Now this all gets complex, and only those that have real open source interests - like in licenses or software patents or copyrights - might want to understand why Mark Shuttleworth is taking but not giving back to the "community" and I'll let you investigate that on your own. small hint: something to appartantly with vendors that won't open up drivers to open source, but will license to ubuntu. The general take, from the developers at LPC was that it was best to support those distros that actually contribute and are trying to make Linux better for us all - and note, IMHO, about 50% of the developers were running ubuntu on their personal laptops - but after learning these facts, that number is probably lower. I only mention this, as I hope ubuntu will be "shamed" into becoming a better contributor to the kernel code work - or at least stop bragging about how much of a contributor they are, when clearly they are not. Sorry to have posted such a long message on such an esoteric topic, and I know many will not really care - and I must say I often recommend Mac to non-power users if they can afford Apple prices, and to newbies, I also recommend ubuntu as the most potentially "trouble free" and now you may have some insights as to why ubuntu seems to get some drivers right that other distros miss. BSD another fine choices - it is nice to have choices. just an FYI - you'll no doubt research on your own. Novell/SUSE (and some would include openSUSE) and Microsoft is of course yet another complex situation - but at least RH and Novell don't just take care of their own corporate distros, they both have fedora/openSUSE AND they actually pay developers to write code/patches for the kernel. They know helping the community helps improve the code base which will eventually end up in their corporate distros. -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= www.psnug.org Puget Sound Network Users Group Building Technical Skills Through Teamwork And Education. Helping members realize Open Standards and investigate Open Source. _____________________ PSNUG dues/food $35 per year -21st anniversary coffee mug that you can pickup at any meeting - no we don't ship. pay at monthly meeting or send checks payable to: PSNUG PSNUG c/o Brandon Fouts 9549a Olympus Beach Rd NE Bainbridge Island, WA 98110-3446 ==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081103/1d4589b2/attachment.html From btm at loftninjas.org Mon Nov 3 18:07:25 2008 From: btm at loftninjas.org (Bryan McLellan) Date: Mon Nov 3 18:04:43 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] ubuntu - FYI only - no flame war intended In-Reply-To: <609b18560811031706t649e779co6d71d82439b17205@mail.gmail.com> References: <609b18560811031706t649e779co6d71d82439b17205@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <893823750811031807o263fcc8bmbc2ad443e1109720@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 6:06 PM, Brandon Fouts wrote: > point of interest, to me anyway, was how little ubuntu contributes up stream > to the kernel > > for details you might check out: > http://www.linuxfoundation.org/publications/linuxkerneldevelopment.php I would rephrase that to be something like, how little Greg KH (who is paid by Novell) feels that Canonical (Ubuntu) contributes to the Linux Kernel and core utilities. Of course one should start by reading Matt Zimmerman's (CTO of Canonical) response to the whole fiasco. [1] > Individuals are - as you'll read at above URL - by far the biggest > contributors at almost 27% and you will note that ubuntu does not make it > into the top 30 - I think they Debian was at least twice perhaps three times > more patches over the last 2 or 3 years. Now this all gets complex, and only > those that have real open source interests - like in licenses or software > patents or copyrights - might want to understand why Mark Shuttleworth is > taking but not giving back to the "community" and I'll let you investigate > that on your own. small hint: something to appartantly with vendors that > won't open up drivers to open source, but will license to ubuntu. I don't see debian or ubuntu mentioned anywhere at that link. I see a list of companies, sponsoring work, but Debian isn't there. That is to be expected, as AFAIK I know there is not an Debian Project entity. The trademark is owned by SPI. [2] I think you'll find most individuals in that list are paid employees of the companies listed in a later table. Many, if not most, of the companies listed in that table are hardware companies. Of course they'll need developers to get kernel support for their hardware. Canonical sells no hardware, nor tries to market to the enterprise like Redhat with features like GFS. I would argue that the goal of Ubuntu has not been to make it run on SGI hardware, but to make Linux more friendly and usable for many people. According to DesktopLinux.com's 2007 survey [3] they're certainly achieving that. How do you calculate the benefit the Linux community as a whole gets from all of the new people and interest Canonical has gathered? Bringing up Debian is interesting. Many of the Canonical people I've worked with directly on IRC were Debian Developers to begin with. See Colin Watson for instance [8]. Debian and Ubuntu are closely tied and from what I've seen the majority of Ubuntu work get's pushed back upstream to debian. It's part of the philosophy of Ubuntu [4] and it certainly makes sense (Avoiding Not Invented Here/NIH). > The general take, from the developers at LPC was that it was best to support > those distros that actually contribute and are trying to make Linux better > for us all - and note, IMHO, about 50% of the developers were running ubuntu > on their personal laptops - but after learning these facts, that number is > probably lower. I think if you look you'll see that Canonical paid developers do a ton of work in the Linux Community. Probably not in the Kernel, but I know in my personal experience I see as much work in virtualization come out of Canonical [5] as I do from Redhat [6]. Redhat owns qumranet now, but you won't see many kernel (api) changes in KVM, which is exactly the point of the approach. Try to get libvirt/kvm running on Debian, then try on Ubuntu and come back to me. There's lots of work being done in Canonical from the user perspective. I don't pay any attention here, but it's essential in solving LP bug 1 [7] in my opinion and I congratulate them for doing it. > I only mention this, as I hope ubuntu will be "shamed" into becoming a > better contributor to the kernel code work - or at least stop bragging about > how much of a contributor they are, when clearly they are not. Please link to bragging. Pics or it didn't happen. > Sorry to have posted such a long message on such an esoteric topic, and I > know many will not really care - and I must say I often recommend Mac to > non-power users if they can afford Apple prices, and to newbies, I also > recommend ubuntu as the most potentially "trouble free" and now you may have > some insights as to why ubuntu seems to get some drivers right that other > distros miss. BSD another fine choices - it is nice to have choices. Ubuntu is willing to release binary drivers. Many distributions aren't. There's strong reasons for not doing this, but if you want to increase the user base of Linux you're going to have to reduce the number of people saying "I installed Linux but my video card/wireless/etc didn't work". Until Linux has a high user base, one really can't force the hardware makers into writing decent open source drivers for their gear. > Novell/SUSE (and some would include openSUSE) and Microsoft is of course > yet another complex situation - but at least RH and Novell don't just take > care of their own corporate distros, they both have fedora/openSUSE AND they > actually pay developers to write code/patches for the kernel. They know > helping the community helps improve the code base which will eventually end > up in their corporate distros. I don't really know what to say to this paragraph. The accusation that Canonical is somehow working in it's own self interest is pretty absurd and I would have to ask to what ends? Support? Redhat, Novell, others, they HAVE corporate distributions which cost money. Canonical does not, and won't. Please, please, read Mark Shuttleworth's FAQ on this subject [9]. Bryan McLellan http://loftninjas.org [1] http://mdzlog.wordpress.com/2008/09/17/greg-kh-linux-ecosystem/ [2] http://www.debian.org/trademark [3] http://www.desktoplinux.com/cgi-bin/survey/survey.cgi?view=archive&id=0813200712407 [4] http://www.ubuntu.com/community/ubuntustory/debian [5] https://help.ubuntu.com/community/JeOSVMBuilder [6] http://et.redhat.com/page/Main_Page [7] https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1 [8] https://launchpad.net/~kamion [9] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarkShuttleworth From benjamin at seattlefenix.net Mon Nov 3 18:19:32 2008 From: benjamin at seattlefenix.net (Benjamin Krueger) Date: Mon Nov 3 18:16:49 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] ubuntu - FYI only - no flame war intended In-Reply-To: <609b18560811031706t649e779co6d71d82439b17205@mail.gmail.com> References: <609b18560811031706t649e779co6d71d82439b17205@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081104021931.GB20047@seattlefenix.net> * Brandon Fouts (brando.fouts@gmail.com) [081103 17:06]: > I had time off, so I went to the LPC - Linux Plumbers Conference - in > Portland last month. Fascinating. Mark Shuttleworth is taking, but not giving back? The guy has given more than $10 million of his own money to maintain Canonical, which makes no profit yet. He's also a large supporter of the KDE project. It's no secret that Canonical is focused on development related to the Linux end-user experience. Why is the frequency of their kernel contributions of relevance here? Must a company dedicate all of its resources to the kernel first? Is the desktop and user experience simply an afterthought that gets whatever R&D scraps are left over after the kernel gets its fill? Sorry, I'm just confused as to why a company focusing on development for end-users deserves our scorn. The very rough estimate is that there are 8 million Ubuntu users. Obviously Ubuntu is giving something of value to people, because 8 million people choose to run it on their desktop over Redhat, SuSE, Debian, and numerous other distros. I run it on all of my production servers because it provides great value to my company. Unlike Debian, Ubuntu gives us frequent releases and useful long term support. Unlike Redhat, the user experience is cohesive and well designed. Unlike SuSE, system management is flexible. I like the Linux kernel. It's a great piece of technology, and a cultural phenomenon. But it is not a God that demands offerings from its subjects. The kernel is free in every regard. And it is useless without a userspace to compliment it. Anyone who suggests that Failure To Pay Homage To The Kernel is a crime is horribly misguided and needs a reality check. In the real world, userspace is growing more important in every way. Every day, individual changes in the kernel become more and more irrelevant to end-users. The kernel's job is to interface with our hardware and manage our processes as efficiently as possible. Userspace's job is to enable users to get things done. If anything, Canonical is doing something even more important than the myriad kernel developers. The kernel enables Canonical, but Canonical enables real people to do real work. As Apple has demonstrated over and over, the technology is great but the interface is golden. Technology's purpose is not to satisfy itself, but to satisfy people. Canonical is working to make the technology better for people. That is the most important job in Open Source right now. So to all the LoC contribution counters, I say get over it. Developing the kernel is not the most important job anymore. Everyone can feel free to republish this anywhere they like. Benjamin Krueger From jtgray79 at gmail.com Mon Nov 3 18:48:53 2008 From: jtgray79 at gmail.com (Jeremiah T Gray) Date: Mon Nov 3 18:46:16 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] ubuntu - FYI only - no flame war intended In-Reply-To: <20081104021931.GB20047@seattlefenix.net> References: <609b18560811031706t649e779co6d71d82439b17205@mail.gmail.com> <20081104021931.GB20047@seattlefenix.net> Message-ID: <6AC5E1E2-3C01-4E71-A35C-92C40DA77AAC@gmail.com> You said it man. Sent from my iPhone On Nov 3, 2008, at 6:19 PM, Benjamin Krueger wrote: > * Brandon Fouts (brando.fouts@gmail.com) [081103 17:06]: >> I had time off, so I went to the LPC - Linux Plumbers Conference >> - in >> Portland last month. > > Fascinating. Mark Shuttleworth is taking, but not giving back? The > guy has given more than $10 million of his own money to maintain > Canonical, which makes no profit yet. He's also a large supporter of > the KDE project. It's no secret that Canonical is focused on > development related to the Linux end-user experience. Why is the > frequency of their kernel contributions of relevance here? Must a > company dedicate all of its resources to the kernel first? Is the > desktop and user experience simply an afterthought that gets > whatever R&D scraps are left over after the kernel gets its fill? > Sorry, I'm just confused as to why a company focusing on development > for end-users deserves our scorn. > > The very rough estimate is that there are 8 million Ubuntu users. > Obviously Ubuntu is giving something of value to people, because 8 > million people choose to run it on their desktop over Redhat, SuSE, > Debian, and numerous other distros. I run it on all of my production > servers because it provides great value to my company. Unlike > Debian, Ubuntu gives us frequent releases and useful long term > support. Unlike Redhat, the user experience is cohesive and well > designed. Unlike SuSE, system management is flexible. > > I like the Linux kernel. It's a great piece of technology, and a > cultural phenomenon. But it is not a God that demands offerings from > its subjects. The kernel is free in every regard. And it is useless > without a userspace to compliment it. Anyone who suggests that > Failure To Pay Homage To The Kernel is a crime is horribly misguided > and needs a reality check. In the real world, userspace is growing > more important in every way. Every day, individual changes in the > kernel become more and more irrelevant to end-users. The kernel's > job is to interface with our hardware and manage our processes as > efficiently as possible. Userspace's job is to enable users to get > things done. If anything, Canonical is doing something even more > important than the myriad kernel developers. The kernel enables > Canonical, but Canonical enables real people to do real work. > > As Apple has demonstrated over and over, the technology is great but > the interface is golden. Technology's purpose is not to satisfy > itself, but to satisfy people. Canonical is working to make the > technology better for people. That is the most important job in Open > Source right now. So to all the LoC contribution counters, I say get > over it. Developing the kernel is not the most important job anymore. > > Everyone can feel free to republish this anywhere they like. > > Benjamin Krueger > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general From btm at loftninjas.org Mon Nov 3 19:54:44 2008 From: btm at loftninjas.org (Bryan McLellan) Date: Mon Nov 3 19:52:02 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] ubuntu - FYI only - no flame war intended In-Reply-To: <812165.89981.qm@web36407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <893823750811031807o263fcc8bmbc2ad443e1109720@mail.gmail.com> <812165.89981.qm@web36407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <893823750811031954l6a1f82e3lc9d1a73e2c214f58@mail.gmail.com> This went to me and not list, so I'm going to not snip the reply. On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 8:25 PM, Michael_Faraday wrote: > All, > > I very much enjoy using Ubuntu. And I certainly agree Ubuntu has been > putting its efforts into the GUI and features making Linux attractive to > non-geeks. I wish to make the point that not only has that been Ubuntu's > focus, but it will have to remain so in the near future. > > Two examples where Ubuntu has not yet even approached its goal: 1. Nearly > all books for Ubuntu users remain indexed in command-line jargon. A would-be > ex Windows user can expect substantial misery when returning to the > publications to solve an issue that arose after the initial reading. (Most > Ubuntu books work very well for an initial linear read. The misery arises > when returning to the books to change something such as switching from > broadband cable to wireless.) While I'd agree that many technical books fail at a useful index, this is besides the point. I buy most my books from a technical publisher, not that company that makes the products that I use. The former is much better at producing quality text. I haven't ever looked at book focused on learning Ubuntu at I used Linux and debian for many years before using Ubuntu, so much of it was where I expected it to be. > Ubuntu peripheral drivers still generate confusion and misery. As much as I > like Ubuntu, I'm now using Mandriva on this laptop. Ubuntu Wi-Fi drivers > don't work with Atheros 5000 chip sets. (Somebody will respond that they do. > But after several days of needing to get family communications reestablished > I had to give up on Ubuntu. I needed something that worked and needed it > without additional days of vague advice such as, "There's got to be a .inf > driver in there somewhere." Could be. But the wrapper does not respond to > "somewhere." It needs an exact location. I've kept Ubuntu on my desk-tops.) > Likewise, digital camera drivers that worked beautifully on the 2005 through > 2007 releases stopped working with release 8.04. I'm not familiar with this particular chipset, nor many others. Every laptop of mine has had wireless work magically, including those requiring (and auto-detecting) restricted (binary) drivers. If you're using ndis-wrapper, you're in a bucket of trouble. If there isn't a binary package or an open source hack for that device, I would probably commit seppaku. The Wistron CM9 Atheros based devices have always worked without much trouble for me with madwifi [1]. > Currently, members at > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ubuntulinux > > Report serious problems upgrading to release 8.10. In some cases the screen > driver stops working. Consequently, many people who enjoyed using Ubuntu for > a few weeks or months return to XP or move to a different Linux. Ubuntu's > remaining frustrations for non-geeks will have to get corrected if Ubuntu is > to reach its goal of becoming "Linux for people." I've had serious problems with Ubuntu, and serious problems with Windows. Generally non tech people may be willing to click through a few driver installations to fix things in windows, or if someone will tell them 'exactly' what to type in Linux they'll go with that. But computers are complicated beasts. I stick with Linux because I know I can solve my own problems with enough time. You can buy a new computer for what it costs in labor to have someone do a reinstall of windows and your applications. Really the argument is that it would be great if everything would just magically work, but it's no fault of Canonical's really if it doesn't. Nor does it have much to do with the kernel, if a driver is not in mainline, there's probably a lack of support coming from the manufacturer. In a world where Greg KH has to offer free code [2] to get manufacturer's to play along, you can't really be blaming the community much for a lack of hardware support. Canonical certainly don't have the resources to test every laptop and desktop hardware combination out there before each release, and then pay developers to fix the bugs. That's where the community comes in, and that's where a lot of Canonical's work shines (omg launchpad is teh qoot). > (BTW. I recently read a Ubuntu developer's blog complaining up lines weren't > using Ubuntu's shut-down window. To my eye that's a bit like complaining > because an attractive young lady does not wear boxer shorts under her string > bikini. A minor point: There's a subjective side to offerings to the Linux > community.) I'll just emphasize the need for links. It's one thing to say Obama is a muslim in real life, on the internetz you should have references. > Yes. I still love Ubuntu. But I'm glad its faults sent me off to discover > Damn Small Linux, Puppy Linux, and Madriva. > > Regards, > > Steven I still hate Slackware. Hmm. I guess I still love freebsd, and openbsd, but I wouldn't go back to running a desktop on them. Nor has anyone ever convinced me life without dpkg && apt is worth living. [1] http://madwifi-project.org/wiki/Compatibility/Wistron [2] http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/487536 From steven_coles at yahoo.com Mon Nov 3 19:59:05 2008 From: steven_coles at yahoo.com (Michael_Faraday) Date: Mon Nov 3 19:56:22 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Wireless & Linux In-Reply-To: <4b5c15340810302046h3b7786c2p4d3273c4b454e2f7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <949204.39337.qm@web36405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> All, A Wisconson amateur radio club indicates that state has a packet-radio backbone with activity on amateur radio bands from 50 through 1300 MHz. I went to the Mike and Key web site to get an idea of Puget-Sound amateur-radio packet and digital activity. Usually, I find what I'm looking for at Mike and Key. This time I found only outdated Relay Newsletter articles. Where should I look for Puget-Sound amateur-radio packet information? Is Linux a major player among amateur radio operators here? Currently, I have only a technician+-class license. What I've heard on HF doesn't give me the slightest motivation to get a general-class license. Packet under Linux could be a different story. Best regards, Steven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081103/d42da92e/attachment.htm From travis.eeepc at gmail.com Mon Nov 3 20:04:55 2008 From: travis.eeepc at gmail.com (Travis) Date: Mon Nov 3 20:02:06 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] ubuntu - FYI only - no flame war intended References: <609b18560811031706t649e779co6d71d82439b17205@mail.gmail.com><20081104021931.GB20047@seattlefenix.net> <6AC5E1E2-3C01-4E71-A35C-92C40DA77AAC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <76A26294EDE3479F94B310158AB1FAB6@EeePC> Jeremiah T Gray wrote: > You said it man. > > Sent from my iPhone Why do people with iPhones always say "Sent from my iPhone"? Sent from my Eee PC 1000H -- Travis in Shoreline Washington From technoshaman at liawol.org Mon Nov 3 20:07:00 2008 From: technoshaman at liawol.org (Glenn Stone) Date: Mon Nov 3 20:04:16 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Wireless & Linux In-Reply-To: <949204.39337.qm@web36405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <4b5c15340810302046h3b7786c2p4d3273c4b454e2f7@mail.gmail.com> <949204.39337.qm@web36405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20081104040700.GR13302@liawol.org> On Mon, Nov 03, 2008 at 07:59:05PM -0800, Michael_Faraday wrote: > Currently, I have only a technician+-class license. What I've heard on > HF doesn't give me the slightest motivation to get a general-class > license. Packet under Linux could be a different story. I thought you only needed a General if you were going to do CW, that everything else was legal under the Tech class? I've always liked the idea of packet radio; the one issue I have with it at the moment is that encryption is _nekulturny_ by amateurs.... they don't give a rat if I pringles-can my (obLinux) WRT54GL and encrypt the crap out of it, but if I'm going to take the trouble to actually learn why and how the darn thing works and get the license for it, I have to send everything in the clear. Phooey. (And I watered this down twice before hitting send... :} -- Glenn From steven_coles at yahoo.com Mon Nov 3 20:11:45 2008 From: steven_coles at yahoo.com (Michael_Faraday) Date: Mon Nov 3 20:09:02 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] ubuntu - FYI only - no flame war intended In-Reply-To: <893823750811031954l6a1f82e3lc9d1a73e2c214f58@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <458685.32120.qm@web36406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Bryan, Thank you for forwarding my post. My point is not to bash Canonical and the Ubuntu community. It's to point out they still have a lot of work (in the direction they've been going) to achieve their stated goal. I don't expect them to become a me-too kernel shop any time soon. Cheers, Steven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081103/49d6d34b/attachment.html From jarod at wilsonet.com Mon Nov 3 20:11:04 2008 From: jarod at wilsonet.com (Jarod Wilson) Date: Mon Nov 3 20:09:18 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] ubuntu - FYI only - no flame war intended In-Reply-To: <76A26294EDE3479F94B310158AB1FAB6@EeePC> References: <609b18560811031706t649e779co6d71d82439b17205@mail.gmail.com> <20081104021931.GB20047@seattlefenix.net> <6AC5E1E2-3C01-4E71-A35C-92C40DA77AAC@gmail.com> <76A26294EDE3479F94B310158AB1FAB6@EeePC> Message-ID: <1225771864.2856.19.camel@icarus.wilsonet.com> On Mon, 2008-11-03 at 20:04 -0800, Travis wrote: > Jeremiah T Gray wrote: > > You said it man. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > Why do people with iPhones always say "Sent from my iPhone"? Because its the default signature on the iphone, and they never changed it. --jarod Sent from my Acer Aspire One, because its more portable around the house than my Lenovo ThinkPad T61 and easier to type a lengthy blurb of crap on than my iPhone. :) From jarod at wilsonet.com Mon Nov 3 20:11:58 2008 From: jarod at wilsonet.com (Jarod Wilson) Date: Mon Nov 3 20:09:29 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] ubuntu - FYI only - no flame war intended In-Reply-To: <893823750811031807o263fcc8bmbc2ad443e1109720@mail.gmail.com> References: <609b18560811031706t649e779co6d71d82439b17205@mail.gmail.com> <893823750811031807o263fcc8bmbc2ad443e1109720@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1225771918.2856.21.camel@icarus.wilsonet.com> On Mon, 2008-11-03 at 19:07 -0700, Bryan McLellan wrote: > I think if you look you'll see that Canonical paid developers do a ton > of work in the Linux Community. Probably not in the Kernel, but I know > in my personal experience I see as much work in virtualization come > out of Canonical [5] as I do from Redhat [6]. Redhat owns qumranet > now, but you won't see many kernel (api) changes in KVM, which is > exactly the point of the approach. Try to get libvirt/kvm running on > Debian, then try on Ubuntu and come back to me. This whole paragraph is honestly quite a laugh and a half. You honestly believe Canonical has done as much virtualization work as Red Hat? The *vast* majority of the heavy lifting in virtualization is kernel-side, where Canonical has done squat, and Red Hat has done a ton of work (even before purchasing qumranet). The next biggest area is management, aka libvirt and virt manager. Both of those were written by Red Hat. Canonical is obviously particularly good at is marketing, if you really think they've done just as much as Red Hat for virtualization. --jarod From crash at neg9.org Mon Nov 3 20:13:17 2008 From: crash at neg9.org (Ian Gallagher) Date: Mon Nov 3 20:10:34 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Wireless & Linux In-Reply-To: <20081104040700.GR13302@liawol.org> References: <4b5c15340810302046h3b7786c2p4d3273c4b454e2f7@mail.gmail.com> <949204.39337.qm@web36405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20081104040700.GR13302@liawol.org> Message-ID: <4b5c15340811032013k1608070fu295577aedff483c2@mail.gmail.com> General and extra give you access to additional frequency ranges, more so than additional modes. You can certainly do CW as a tech, and various forms of packet/data. Even Amatuer over 2.4ghz at a much higher PEP wattage than normal wifi is licensed for. (1500 watts :)) More info on that (High-speed multimedia radio): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinternet Indeed, encryption, or using code in communication over amateur radio is currently prohibited. I've heard that there's something in the works to get this changed, with the development of digital communications, but I'm not sure what the status of that is. -Ian On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 23:07, Glenn Stone wrote: > On Mon, Nov 03, 2008 at 07:59:05PM -0800, Michael_Faraday wrote: > > Currently, I have only a technician+-class license. What I've heard on > > HF doesn't give me the slightest motivation to get a general-class > > license. Packet under Linux could be a different story. > > I thought you only needed a General if you were going to do CW, that > everything else was legal under the Tech class? > > I've always liked the idea of packet radio; the one issue I have with it at > the moment is that encryption is _nekulturny_ by amateurs.... they don't > give a rat if I pringles-can my (obLinux) WRT54GL and encrypt the crap out > of it, but if I'm going to take the trouble to actually learn why and how > the darn thing works and get the license for it, I have to send everything > in the clear. > > Phooey. > > (And I watered this down twice before hitting send... :} > > -- Glenn > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081103/35b86bd7/attachment.htm From steven_coles at yahoo.com Mon Nov 3 20:22:35 2008 From: steven_coles at yahoo.com (Michael_Faraday) Date: Mon Nov 3 20:19:53 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Wireless & Linux In-Reply-To: <20081104040700.GR13302@liawol.org> Message-ID: <198907.27424.qm@web36403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Glenn, I'm not currently active in amateur radio. Last I checked technician licensees still had very limited band segments and emission types in the frequencies below 50 MHz. Could have changed. I don't subscribe to QST. Too little in it interests me. The amateur radio ?plain language? requirement goes back a long way. Interpreting it into a digital mode? Has it been clarified? Best regards, Steven, KD7YTE --- On Mon, 11/3/08, Glenn Stone wrote: From: Glenn Stone Subject: Re: [Gslug-general] Wireless & Linux To: gslug-general@gslug.org Date: Monday, November 3, 2008, 8:07 PM On Mon, Nov 03, 2008 at 07:59:05PM -0800, Michael_Faraday wrote: > Currently, I have only a technician+-class license. What I've heard on > HF doesn't give me the slightest motivation to get a general-class > license. Packet under Linux could be a different story. I thought you only needed a General if you were going to do CW, that everything else was legal under the Tech class? I've always liked the idea of packet radio; the one issue I have with it at the moment is that encryption is _nekulturny_ by amateurs.... they don't give a rat if I pringles-can my (obLinux) WRT54GL and encrypt the crap out of it, but if I'm going to take the trouble to actually learn why and how the darn thing works and get the license for it, I have to send everything in the clear. Phooey. (And I watered this down twice before hitting send... :} -- Glenn _______________________________________________ Gslug-general mailing list Gslug-general@gslug.org http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081103/fd951eff/attachment-0001.html From crash at neg9.org Mon Nov 3 20:35:15 2008 From: crash at neg9.org (Ian Gallagher) Date: Mon Nov 3 20:32:32 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Wireless & Linu In-Reply-To: <198907.27424.qm@web36403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20081104040700.GR13302@liawol.org> <198907.27424.qm@web36403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4b5c15340811032035m3a465e78r1633b74e0d14bb7c@mail.gmail.com> True, my previous statement wasn't really correct in saying that you just got my frequency allocation. Sorry about that - More info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amateur_radio_frequency_allocations#ITU_Region_2 -Ian On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 23:22, Michael_Faraday wrote: > Glenn, > > > I'm not currently active in amateur radio. Last I checked technician > licensees still had very limited band segments and emission types in the > frequencies below 50 MHz. Could have changed. I don't subscribe to QST. Too > little in it interests me. > > > The amateur radio "plain language" requirement goes back a long way. > Interpreting it into a digital mode? Has it been clarified? > > > Best regards, > > > Steven, KD7YTE > > --- On *Mon, 11/3/08, Glenn Stone * wrote: > > From: Glenn Stone > Subject: Re: [Gslug-general] Wireless & Linux > To: gslug-general@gslug.org > Date: Monday, November 3, 2008, 8:07 PM > > On Mon, Nov 03, 2008 at 07:59:05PM -0800, Michael_Faraday wrote: > > Currently, I have only a technician+-class license. What I've heard > on > > HF doesn't give me the slightest motivation to get a general-class > > license. Packet under Linux could be a different story. > > I thought you only needed a General if you were going to do CW, that > everything else was legal under the Tech class? > > I've always liked the idea of packet radio; the one issue I have with it at > the moment is that encryption is _nekulturny_ by amateurs.... they don't > give > a rat if I pringles-can my (obLinux) WRT54GL and encrypt the crap out > of it, but if I'm going to take the trouble to actually learn why and how > the darn thing works and get the license for it, I have to send everything > in the clear. > > Phooey. > > (And I watered this down twice before hitting send... :} > > -- Glenn > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > > > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081103/e8868158/attachment.htm From jarod at wilsonet.com Mon Nov 3 20:36:24 2008 From: jarod at wilsonet.com (Jarod Wilson) Date: Mon Nov 3 20:33:45 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] ubuntu - FYI only - no flame war intended In-Reply-To: <1225771918.2856.21.camel@icarus.wilsonet.com> References: <609b18560811031706t649e779co6d71d82439b17205@mail.gmail.com> <893823750811031807o263fcc8bmbc2ad443e1109720@mail.gmail.com> <1225771918.2856.21.camel@icarus.wilsonet.com> Message-ID: <1225773384.2856.37.camel@icarus.wilsonet.com> On Mon, 2008-11-03 at 23:11 -0500, Jarod Wilson wrote: > On Mon, 2008-11-03 at 19:07 -0700, Bryan McLellan wrote: > > I think if you look you'll see that Canonical paid developers do a ton > > of work in the Linux Community. Probably not in the Kernel, but I know > > in my personal experience I see as much work in virtualization come > > out of Canonical [5] as I do from Redhat [6]. Redhat owns qumranet > > now, but you won't see many kernel (api) changes in KVM, which is > > exactly the point of the approach. Try to get libvirt/kvm running on > > Debian, then try on Ubuntu and come back to me. > > This whole paragraph is honestly quite a laugh and a half. You honestly > believe Canonical has done as much virtualization work as Red Hat? The > *vast* majority of the heavy lifting in virtualization is kernel-side, > where Canonical has done squat, and Red Hat has done a ton of work (even > before purchasing qumranet). The next biggest area is management, aka > libvirt and virt manager. Both of those were written by Red Hat. > Canonical is obviously particularly good at is marketing, if you really > think they've done just as much as Red Hat for virtualization. Wow, I sound a bit hostile there... Apologies for that. But honestly, Red Hat does do way more than Canonical in the virtualization space, and for the Linux community as a whole, and that's to be expected -- Red Hat has been around a lot longer, and has somewhere around 20x as many employees. Red Hat just isn't as good at marketing as Canonical. --jarod From steven_coles at yahoo.com Mon Nov 3 20:46:32 2008 From: steven_coles at yahoo.com (Michael_Faraday) Date: Mon Nov 3 20:43:53 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Wireless & Linux In-Reply-To: <20081104040719.GA5857@holmsjoen.com> Message-ID: <61819.73529.qm@web36408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Randolph, The Tacoma club is W7DK. My father (K7CZM, SK) held various offices in it circa 40 years ago. Both W7DK and the Puyallup club (W7HZ?) used to get impressive scores every field day. The Puget-Sound basin has been, and presumably still is, well populated with amateur radio clubs. I went to the Mike and Key web site http://www.mikeandkey.org/ because they've often served as an umbrella organization compiling such things as the functioning VHF repeaters in the Puget-Sound area, ham fests & swap meets, and so fifth. I'll check W7DK's information. http://www.w7dk.org/ BTW, circa 1971 I did summer relief broadcast engineer (in the same sense railroad engineers are engineers) work for KTNT-TV channel 11 when it was owned by the Tacoma News Tribune. Best regards, Steven --- On Mon, 11/3/08, Randolph Bentson wrote: From: Randolph Bentson Subject: Re: [Gslug-general] Wireless & Linux To: "Michael_Faraday" Date: Monday, November 3, 2008, 8:07 PM On Mon, Nov 03, 2008 at 07:59:05PM -0800, Michael_Faraday wrote: > All, > > A Wisconson amateur radio club > indicates that state has a packet-radio backbone with activity on > amateur radio bands from 50 through 1300 MHz. I went to the Mike and > Key web site to get an idea of Puget-Sound amateur-radio packet and > digital activity. Usually, I find what I'm looking for at Mike and > Key. This time I found only outdated Relay Newsletter articles. > > Where should I look for Puget-Sound > amateur-radio packet information? Is Linux a major player among > amateur radio operators here? > > Currently, I have only a > technician+-class license. What I've heard on HF doesn't give me the > slightest motivation to get a general-class license. Packet under > Linux could be a different story. There's an active radio club in Tacoma. I don't know how computer savvy they are. Search old copies of "The News Tribune" for an article. If that doesn't work out, I'll try to hunt through my archives. Randolph Bentson bentson@holmsjoen.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081103/a86a3fdb/attachment.html From jtgray79 at gmail.com Mon Nov 3 20:58:12 2008 From: jtgray79 at gmail.com (Jeremiah T Gray) Date: Mon Nov 3 20:55:38 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] ubuntu - FYI only - no flame war intended In-Reply-To: <76A26294EDE3479F94B310158AB1FAB6@EeePC> References: <609b18560811031706t649e779co6d71d82439b17205@mail.gmail.com><20081104021931.GB20047@seattlefenix.net> <6AC5E1E2-3C01-4E71-A35C-92C40DA77AAC@gmail.com> <76A26294EDE3479F94B310158AB1FAB6@EeePC> Message-ID: <7D932D96-3DDE-4887-A889-A72E9DF3122E@gmail.com> It's default sig and explains any weird typos or malapropisms. Sent from my iPhone On Nov 3, 2008, at 8:04 PM, "Travis" wrote: > Jeremiah T Gray wrote: >> You said it man. >> Sent from my iPhone > > Why do people with iPhones always say "Sent from my iPhone"? > > Sent from my Eee PC 1000H > -- > > Travis in Shoreline Washington > > > From technoshaman at liawol.org Mon Nov 3 20:59:09 2008 From: technoshaman at liawol.org (Glenn Stone) Date: Mon Nov 3 20:56:25 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] ubuntu - FYI only - no flame war intended In-Reply-To: <1225773384.2856.37.camel@icarus.wilsonet.com> References: <609b18560811031706t649e779co6d71d82439b17205@mail.gmail.com> <893823750811031807o263fcc8bmbc2ad443e1109720@mail.gmail.com> <1225771918.2856.21.camel@icarus.wilsonet.com> <1225773384.2856.37.camel@icarus.wilsonet.com> Message-ID: <20081104045909.GA28424@liawol.org> On Mon, Nov 03, 2008 at 11:36:24PM -0500, Jarod Wilson wrote: >Wow, I sound a bit hostile there... Apologies for that. But honestly, >Red Hat does do way more than Canonical in the virtualization space, and >for the Linux community as a whole, and that's to be expected -- Red Hat >has been around a lot longer, and has somewhere around 20x as many >employees. Red Hat just isn't as good at marketing as Canonical. And here I was just thinking to myself that I was happy something controversial was being discussed without a flame war... and I'm old enough to remember bang-paths and BITNET, so yeah, flame wars? seen a few. :) Seems to me lately that RH mostly focuses server/enterprise side - which is no bad thing when you're talking getting virtualization and automated installs and all that working - and Ubuntu focuses a lot on the desktop, which is just ducky if a desktop (or a laptop, for that matter) is what you're after. Not to say that you can't build a desktop with RH or Fedora, or drop JEOS (Ubuntu's Just Enough OS) on your VM farm... it's just been my experience that that's where the strengths lie. I don't think either camp's contribution to the community is lacking, I just think they're vastly different. Which is good! I'd hate to see the desktop languish in the 20th century just because everybody thought servers was where it was at... I'd also hate to think what would happen if everybody thought grabbing desktop share was the way to Nirvana and we had to write our own server installation automation every time from scratch. (Actually, I know what would happen, somebody would fork either Debian or Red Hat and create ServerIx or some fool name like that, strip out all the desktoppy crap, and stick it up on the web.... I honestly think the community is constitutionally unable to late a gaping hole like that stand for more than a year or two. Which is also very good!) -- Glenn, equal opportunity penguinista o/~ Back when FORTRAN was only Three-TRAN And the PC, only a toy! And we did our computing by gaslight! When I was a boy.... o/~ -- Frank Hayes (who, if you want to hear more songs like this, will be Toastmaster at Conflikt II, www.conflikt.org) From dlg_grdnr7 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 3 21:43:12 2008 From: dlg_grdnr7 at yahoo.com (Donald G) Date: Mon Nov 3 21:40:33 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] linux and amateur radio In-Reply-To: <20081104042000.3ECA079B@drowsy.ifokr.org> Message-ID: <809772.51657.qm@web56705.mail.re3.yahoo.com> technician privileges on the low bands is only CW.? The reason many people like myself went to general then advanced (and now extra) was for the phone priviledges.? Check the very bottom of this web site for tech priviledges and you will see that techs have only CW below 30 Mhz. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amateur_radio_frequency_allocations As far as encryption, there really shouldn't be any reason to use it over amateur radio.?? The type of conversation that normally takes place is "Hi, how are you?? what is your weather like?"? just friendly chit chat. see the purpose of amateur radio here http://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/regulations/news/part97/ I have always thought that the two camps were sort of separate.? That is that while amateurs used computers, they were only used as a sideline (computers did their job transparently in the background).??? In computers, however, I rarely if ever heard about how computers benefited the radio service.?? I would advise doing work in packet if you want to combine linux and amateur radio. As for me, I have always enjoyed the art of radio, and only recently, taken a heavy interest in putting radio and computers together (especially with linux) Donald writing from Beijing China On Mon, Nov 03, 2008 at 07:59:05PM -0800, Michael_Faraday wrote: >???Currently, I have only a technician+-class license. What I've heard on >???HF doesn't give me the slightest motivation to get a general-class >???license. Packet under Linux could be a different story. I thought you only needed a General if you were going to do CW, that everything else was legal under the Tech class?? I've always liked the idea of packet radio; the one issue I have with it at the moment is that encryption is _nekulturny_ by amateurs.... they don't give a rat if I pringles-can my (obLinux) WRT54GL and encrypt the crap out of it, but if I'm going to take the trouble to actually learn why and how the darn thing works and get the license for it, I have to send everything in the clear.??? Phooey. (And I watered this down twice before hitting send... :} -- Glenn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081103/f649d26e/attachment-0001.htm From btm at loftninjas.org Mon Nov 3 22:34:17 2008 From: btm at loftninjas.org (Bryan McLellan) Date: Mon Nov 3 22:31:36 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Linux Virtualization, was: ubuntu - FYI only - no flame war intended Message-ID: <893823750811032234o72e17651mb1fdc9e8a764b58b@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 9:36 PM, Jarod Wilson wrote: > On Mon, 2008-11-03 at 23:11 -0500, Jarod Wilson wrote: >> On Mon, 2008-11-03 at 19:07 -0700, Bryan McLellan wrote: >> > I think if you look you'll see that Canonical paid developers do a ton >> > of work in the Linux Community. Probably not in the Kernel, but I know >> > in my personal experience I see as much work in virtualization come >> > out of Canonical [5] as I do from Redhat [6]. Redhat owns qumranet >> > now, but you won't see many kernel (api) changes in KVM, which is >> > exactly the point of the approach. Try to get libvirt/kvm running on >> > Debian, then try on Ubuntu and come back to me. >> >> This whole paragraph is honestly quite a laugh and a half. You honestly >> believe Canonical has done as much virtualization work as Red Hat? The >> *vast* majority of the heavy lifting in virtualization is kernel-side, >> where Canonical has done squat, and Red Hat has done a ton of work (even >> before purchasing qumranet). The next biggest area is management, aka >> libvirt and virt manager. Both of those were written by Red Hat. >> Canonical is obviously particularly good at is marketing, if you really >> think they've done just as much as Red Hat for virtualization. > > Wow, I sound a bit hostile there... Apologies for that. But honestly, > Red Hat does do way more than Canonical in the virtualization space, and > for the Linux community as a whole, and that's to be expected -- Red Hat > has been around a lot longer, and has somewhere around 20x as many > employees. Red Hat just isn't as good at marketing as Canonical. It has little to do with marketing and more to do with 'my personal experience'. Any pre-qumranet kernel virtualization code out of Redhat doesn't really count because it's not mainline, does it? I haven't gotten to a point where my virtualization efforts required the benefits of Xen's paravirtualization at the cost of running Xen specific kernels. At my current job I inherited a vmware-server setup where the full virtualization worked just fine and I didn't have to customize guests. With my preseeded/puppetized setup customization wasn't hard, but I was unconvinced it was worth the time. Quramnet's initial KVM patch was slender [1]. It's mainline and thus requires no screwing around to get going. With Canonical's ubuntu-vm-builder and kvm/libvirt packages I had my infrastructure code switched over with little effort [2][3][4]. I've used the virtio for networking [5] and it's slick, I imagine the disk paravirtualization stuff will be just as easy, and it's all mainline. The magic of Canonical's work was being able to "apt-get install kvm libvirt-bin ubuntu-vm-builder virt-manager" followed with a "ubuntu-vm-builder kvm hardy --libvirt qemu:///system". It really was that easy. To get it all enterprise ready I had to do some modifications [4] which aren't going to be in intrepid, but thanks to the Ubuntu Server Team there's at least a branch out there of vm-builder that had them before intrepid shipped [5]. I would argue with the "*vast* majority" of virtualization heavy lifting be kernel side. I think KVM is evidence to the contrary, and I think most of the heavy lifting there is really in pre-existing qemu code. If I've missed Redhat's non-qumranet kernel code here please point it out, I'm honestly interested. I give mad props to Redhat's ET team [6] for libvirt/virt-manager, and it being sane. Like vm-builder, these projects have saved me maintaining a lot of in house code for managing virtual machines. Maybe if I didn't hate RHEL, wasn't allergic to RPMs, and didn't give up on RH back around 6.1 when life started getting super enterprise centric, I would have built an infrastructure on an RH platform. But it didn't turn out that way. This feels a little like arguing between "Linux" or "GNU/Linux". Maybe it's just my personality, perhaps it's that Canonical folks are more prone to be helpful in places like freenode/#kvm because they've seen me around #ubuntu-virt or #ubuntu-boot. Honestly my only interaction with Redhat people has been someone asking me if -uuid was added to kvm yet on one of the virt mailing lists when I asked if libvirt had support for it. Not that they're not out there, but in my personal experience I don't see much of them. I go back to Benjamin Krueger's comment that "It's no secret that Canonical is focused on development related to the Linux end-user experience. Why is the frequency of their kernel contributions of relevance here?". Canonical made all of this easy for me, although admittedly I'm no freshman to this stuff. Which is important to me, because I focus these days on producing infrastructure for purpose rather than academic adventure. Forget Xen if you have to be Amazon to build an infrastructure out of it. My startup can't afford kernel developers on staff. apt-get install big-red-button On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 9:59 PM, Glenn Stone wrote: > Seems to me lately that RH mostly focuses server/enterprise side - which is > no bad thing when you're talking getting virtualization and automated > installs and all that working - and Ubuntu focuses a lot on the desktop, > which is just ducky if a desktop (or a laptop, for that matter) is what > you're after. Not to say that you can't build a desktop with RH or Fedora, > or drop JEOS (Ubuntu's Just Enough OS) on your VM farm... it's just been my > experience that that's where the strengths lie. Plug for debian-installer, which Ubuntu uses, and it's ability to do preseeding. Personally I think the big difference between SuSE/Redhat and Debian/Ubuntu is having someone to blame (read, support) when it doesn't work the way you want it to. I either convert or don't work for companies that are dependent on that because it's evident of some misguided choices that make life (work) hard on a daily basis. You're right though, I thought it was pretty bizare that python-vm-builder (vm-builder) default KVM guests to NAT'd mode and lacked a bridging option after that mistake was already made with ubuntu-vm-builder (hardy bash version). I realize it was probably because of the desktop focus. But building Ubuntu server guests with python-vm-builder in minutes using debootstrap instead of pxe is just darn sexy (and practical but, sexy). And with Ubuntu, anyone can do it. I swear with Shuttleworth's recent comments about Canonical not being, or expected to be soon, cash flow positive [7] he said that they could be sooner if they focused on Server more, but I can't find the quote. Ubuntu is a great server product. I can't even think up a stereotypical answer I've heard as to why it shouldn't be. Perhaps support (it has it, but probably not the same metrics) or it being too cutting edge or something. I'd be interested to hear arguments, or answer any questions about how I built it out. Bryan McLellan [1] http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux-2.6.git;a=commitdiff;h=6aa8b732ca01c3d7a54e93f4d701b8aabbe60fb7 [2] http://blog.loftninjas.org/?p=218 [3] http://blog.loftninjas.org/?p=239 [4] http://blog.loftninjas.org/?p=221 [5] http://blog.loftninjas.org/?p=256 [6] http://et.redhat.com/page/Main_Page [7] http://blogs.computerworld.com/ubuntus_shuttleworth_i_dont_think_anyone_can_make_money_from_the_linux_desktop From aonoraha at gmail.com Tue Nov 4 07:53:50 2008 From: aonoraha at gmail.com (Aaron Appelbaum) Date: Tue Nov 4 07:51:10 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Ubuntu, ATI, Compiz, Dual Monitor Fun In-Reply-To: <893823750811030939tf83c544j9db8bc93eb74cb20@mail.gmail.com> References: <90312f880811011835r6d3aca7dt6ffd63e290aaf822@mail.gmail.com> <893823750811030939tf83c544j9db8bc93eb74cb20@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <90312f880811040753s2e6eff68rccbba469b6893a64@mail.gmail.com> > I share the general ATI hate. My desktop at work has an ATI card and I > just miss twinview. I settled for running without compiz back when I > was having problems, and I haven't tried to configure it since. I am > running intrepid now. > I found [1] clearing my xorg.conf and running aticonfig to get the > best results, such as: > aticonfig ?initial=dual-head ?dtop=horizontal Thanks Bryan. I tried some more things, including this helpful tutorial: http://ge.ubuntuforums.com/showthread.php?t=301941. The best I've come up with is 2048x768 (1024x768*2) across both screens. It's not pretty, but compiz does work. I think I am going to stick to life without compiz and go back to the native resolution. Maybe amd/ati will devote more time to resolving some of these issues in the future. ~Aaron From jarod at wilsonet.com Tue Nov 4 09:09:59 2008 From: jarod at wilsonet.com (Jarod Wilson) Date: Tue Nov 4 09:08:02 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Re: Linux Virtualization, was: ubuntu - FYI only - no flame war intended In-Reply-To: <893823750811032234o72e17651mb1fdc9e8a764b58b@mail.gmail.com> References: <893823750811032234o72e17651mb1fdc9e8a764b58b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1225818599.3843.67.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> On Mon, 2008-11-03 at 23:34 -0700, Bryan McLellan wrote: > On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 9:36 PM, Jarod Wilson > wrote: > > On Mon, 2008-11-03 at 23:11 -0500, Jarod Wilson wrote: > >> On Mon, 2008-11-03 at 19:07 -0700, Bryan McLellan wrote: > >> > I think if you look you'll see that Canonical paid developers do > a ton > >> > of work in the Linux Community. Probably not in the Kernel, but I > know > >> > in my personal experience I see as much work in virtualization > come > >> > out of Canonical [5] as I do from Redhat [6]. Redhat owns > qumranet > >> > now, but you won't see many kernel (api) changes in KVM, which is > >> > exactly the point of the approach. Try to get libvirt/kvm running > on > >> > Debian, then try on Ubuntu and come back to me. > >> > >> This whole paragraph is honestly quite a laugh and a half. You > honestly > >> believe Canonical has done as much virtualization work as Red Hat? > The > >> *vast* majority of the heavy lifting in virtualization is > kernel-side, > >> where Canonical has done squat, and Red Hat has done a ton of work > (even > >> before purchasing qumranet). The next biggest area is management, > aka > >> libvirt and virt manager. Both of those were written by Red Hat. > >> Canonical is obviously particularly good at is marketing, if you > really > >> think they've done just as much as Red Hat for virtualization. > > > > Wow, I sound a bit hostile there... Apologies for that. But > > honestly, Red Hat does do way more than Canonical in the > > virtualization space, and for the Linux community as a whole, > > and that's to be expected -- Red Hat has been around a lot longer, > > and has somewhere around 20x as many employees. Red Hat just isn't > > as good at marketing as Canonical. > > It has little to do with marketing and more to do with 'my personal > experience'. Sorry, I was generalizing a bit. > Any pre-qumranet kernel virtualization code out of Redhat > doesn't really count because it's not mainline, does it? I haven't > gotten to a point where my virtualization efforts required the > benefits of Xen's paravirtualization at the cost of running Xen > specific kernels. You appear to be under the false impression that prior to purchasing qumranet, Red Hat was only working on Xen code. Quite the contrary. If you look at 'git log -- virt/kvm' and 'git log -- drivers/kvm' output, note the following names that show up: Glauber Costa (3) Marcello Tosatti (18) Ulrich Drepper (1) Ingo Molnar (13) Mark McLoughlin (1) Al Viro (5) Eduardo Habkost (1) James Morris (1) Jeremy Katz (1) Chris LaLancette (3) These are all Red Hat employees, who have contributed patches for KVM, dating back at least as far as December of 2006, the numbers in parens are the Author: lines for each of the individuals I counted. And these are not folks who came to Red Hat via the Qumranet acquisition. Marcello, Glauber, Eduardo, Mark and Chris are all full-time members of the RH virt team, Al, Ingo, Ulrich, James and Jeremy just happened to submit assorted kvm patches too. Note that a ton of early KVM stuff was vetted through Ingo as well. This also doesn't include any of the work Red Hat has done on the pvops code shared by all virt technologies (Chris and Eduardo have done a fair amount of work here, as has Stephen Tweedie, might be forgetting others), or work on in the memory management layer by Rik van Riel specifically to improve virtualization. > Quramnet's initial KVM patch was slender [1]. It's mainline and thus > requires no screwing around to get going. Not as much anymore, thanks to ~705 commits between the initial patch and today. Not one of which I can directly attribute to Canonical (though its possible one of the random folks that has contributed is actually a Canonical employee, just didn't use their work email). > With Canonical's > ubuntu-vm-builder and kvm/libvirt packages I had my infrastructure > code switched over with little effort [2][3][4]. I've used the virtio > for networking [5] and it's slick, I imagine the disk > paravirtualization stuff will be just as easy, and it's all mainline. > > The magic of Canonical's work was being able to "apt-get install kvm > libvirt-bin ubuntu-vm-builder virt-manager" followed with a > "ubuntu-vm-builder kvm hardy --libvirt qemu:///system". It really was > that easy. Largely thanks to Red Hat writing libvirt. :) > I would argue with the "*vast* majority" of virtualization heavy > lifting be kernel side. I think KVM is evidence to the contrary, and I > think most of the heavy lifting there is really in pre-existing qemu > code. Most of the hard stuff is in-kernel, getting memory mappings, virtual device mappings, etc., all correct. True, existing qemu code does do a reasonable amount of heavy lifting in making kvm work as well as it does. But that's more emulation, not virtualization. > If I've missed Redhat's non-qumranet kernel code here please > point it out, I'm honestly interested. See above. :) > I give mad props to Redhat's ET > team [6] for libvirt/virt-manager, and it being sane. Like vm-builder, > these projects have saved me maintaining a lot of in house code for > managing virtual machines. Maybe if I didn't hate RHEL, wasn't > allergic to RPMs, and didn't give up on RH back around 6.1 when life > started getting super enterprise centric, I would have built an > infrastructure on an RH platform. So your hatred of Red Hat is largely based on a 7 year old distro?... Things have changed just a wee bit since then. :) > But it didn't turn out that way. > This feels a little like arguing between "Linux" or "GNU/Linux". Maybe > it's just my personality, perhaps it's that Canonical folks are more > prone to be helpful in places like freenode/#kvm because they've seen > me around #ubuntu-virt or #ubuntu-boot. Honestly my only interaction > with Redhat people has been someone asking me if -uuid was added to > kvm yet on one of the virt mailing lists when I asked if libvirt had > support for it. Not that they're not out there, but in my personal > experience I don't see much of them. Part of this may be because the Red Hat folks are largely nose-down in code making it work better, while Canonical has a more end-user-focused approach. And support for Red Hat stuff is typically through support contracts and/or RH-specific mailing lists, or in the case of Fedora, Fedora-specific mailing lists and irc channels. Dunno. > I go back to Benjamin Krueger's comment that "It's no secret that > Canonical is focused on development related to the Linux end-user > experience. Why is the frequency of their kernel contributions of > relevance here?". Because polish on top of other people's already-stabilized work is the only thing Canonical has really contributed, in the eyes of a lot of people actually in the trenches writing the code. > Canonical made all of this easy for me, After folks like Red Hat and Qumranet did all the hard work, I'd argue. :) -- Jarod Wilson jarod@wilsonet.com From benjamin at seattlefenix.net Tue Nov 4 09:27:41 2008 From: benjamin at seattlefenix.net (Benjamin Krueger) Date: Tue Nov 4 09:24:58 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Re: Linux Virtualization, was: ubuntu - FYI only - no flame war intended In-Reply-To: <1225818599.3843.67.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> References: <893823750811032234o72e17651mb1fdc9e8a764b58b@mail.gmail.com> <1225818599.3843.67.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> Message-ID: <20081104172740.GC20047@seattlefenix.net> * Jarod Wilson (jarod@wilsonet.com) [081104 09:11]: > > Because polish on top of other people's already-stabilized work is the > only thing Canonical has really contributed, in the eyes of a lot of > people actually in the trenches writing the code. Those socialists! People are free to believe whatever they like. Fact remains that Canonical has done much more than simply "polish stabilized work". I know that's an attempt to trivialize their efforts, and it's a little insulting. Ubuntu is not like CentOS, just repackaging and renaming Debian's packages and calling it good. At the end of the day, this is Free Open Source Software. If developers don't want to play, then they are free to use other licenses. I don't understand this sudden backlash against a company and volunteers who take a mediocre product (and lets face it, most Linux distros offer a mediocre user experience) and transform it into a great product. Ben From jarod at wilsonet.com Tue Nov 4 12:13:47 2008 From: jarod at wilsonet.com (Jarod Wilson) Date: Tue Nov 4 12:11:11 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Re: Linux Virtualization, was: ubuntu - FYI only - no flame war intended In-Reply-To: <20081104172740.GC20047@seattlefenix.net> References: <893823750811032234o72e17651mb1fdc9e8a764b58b@mail.gmail.com> <1225818599.3843.67.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <20081104172740.GC20047@seattlefenix.net> Message-ID: <1225829627.3843.100.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> On Tue, 2008-11-04 at 09:27 -0800, Benjamin Krueger wrote: > * Jarod Wilson (jarod@wilsonet.com) [081104 09:11]: > > > > Because polish on top of other people's already-stabilized work is the > > only thing Canonical has really contributed, in the eyes of a lot of > > people actually in the trenches writing the code. > > Those socialists! > > People are free to believe whatever they like. Fact remains that Canonical > has done much more than simply "polish stabilized work". I know that's an > attempt to trivialize their efforts, and it's a little insulting. Ubuntu > is not like CentOS, just repackaging and renaming Debian's packages and > calling it good. > > At the end of the day, this is Free Open Source Software. If developers > don't want to play, then they are free to use other licenses. I don't > understand this sudden backlash against a company and volunteers who > take a mediocre product (and lets face it, most Linux distros offer a > mediocre user experience) and transform it into a great product. Bashing Canonical was not my intent, just trying to get some facts out there about what they've contributed to virtualization vs. Red Hat. And I didn't say the polish was a bad thing, or that it was all they do -- note the "in the eyes of..." part. I think its great that they've got a popular distribution that has helped bring Linux to a lot more people, and raised the bar for other distributions to clean up their own desktop offerings and whatnot. I was simply saying that a lot of developers, as evidenced by Greg KH's talk, have the impression that all they do is take from the open-source community, giving very little back, and getting all sorts of credit for other people's work. Virtualization strikes me as an area they really haven't done squat compared w/Red Hat, and yet we've got folks on this list, who appear to be intelligent, education individuals, with the impression Canonical has done just as much as Red Hat in the virtualization space. The JeOS vmbuilder is the only thing I can see that Canonical has actually contributed any code to (though I've not looked to see if they've sent patches in for libvirt or virt-manager). Red Hat has 40+ kernel kvm code contributions (on top of those from Qumranet employees), and wrote libvirt and virt-manager. -- Jarod Wilson jarod@wilsonet.com From jarod at wilsonet.com Tue Nov 4 12:34:03 2008 From: jarod at wilsonet.com (Jarod Wilson) Date: Tue Nov 4 12:31:22 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] ubuntu - FYI only - no flame war intended In-Reply-To: <20081104045909.GA28424@liawol.org> References: <609b18560811031706t649e779co6d71d82439b17205@mail.gmail.com> <893823750811031807o263fcc8bmbc2ad443e1109720@mail.gmail.com> <1225771918.2856.21.camel@icarus.wilsonet.com> <1225773384.2856.37.camel@icarus.wilsonet.com> <20081104045909.GA28424@liawol.org> Message-ID: <1225830843.3843.109.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> On Mon, 2008-11-03 at 20:59 -0800, Glenn Stone wrote: > On Mon, Nov 03, 2008 at 11:36:24PM -0500, Jarod Wilson wrote: > >Wow, I sound a bit hostile there... Apologies for that. But honestly, > >Red Hat does do way more than Canonical in the virtualization space, and > >for the Linux community as a whole, and that's to be expected -- Red Hat > >has been around a lot longer, and has somewhere around 20x as many > >employees. Red Hat just isn't as good at marketing as Canonical. > > And here I was just thinking to myself that I was happy something > controversial was being discussed without a flame war... and I'm old enough > to remember bang-paths and BITNET, so yeah, flame wars? seen a few. :) > > Seems to me lately that RH mostly focuses server/enterprise side - which is > no bad thing when you're talking getting virtualization and automated > installs and all that working - and Ubuntu focuses a lot on the desktop, Yep. Red Hat has basically come out and said in no uncertain terms, they're not after the desktop, they're focused on enterprise. There simply isn't money to be made on the desktop unless you're HUGE (i.e. Microsoft), while the server market is quite lucrative. Red Hat has shareholders to appease. > which is just ducky if a desktop (or a laptop, for that matter) is what > you're after. Not to say that you can't build a desktop with RH or Fedora, > or drop JEOS (Ubuntu's Just Enough OS) on your VM farm... it's just been my > experience that that's where the strengths lie. Thing is... Red Hat actually does plenty of innovation on the desktop too, via Fedora. But Fedora is a bit more leading/bleeding edge than Ubuntu, more focused on developers than on end-users. Some of the "new" features that show up rock-solid in Ubuntu are that way because other distributions already shipped them and worked out the bugs. ;) > I don't think either camp's contribution to the community is lacking, I just > think they're vastly different. Which is good! I do agree that the two contribute in very different ways, and that's not a bad thing, but Ubuntu could stand to improve their involvement with upstream projects -- I actually think Canonical has finally come to understand this, and is actively trying to improve the situation. -- Jarod Wilson jarod@wilsonet.com From btm at loftninjas.org Tue Nov 4 14:21:47 2008 From: btm at loftninjas.org (Bryan McLellan) Date: Tue Nov 4 14:19:37 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] ubuntu - FYI only - no flame war intended In-Reply-To: <1225830843.3843.109.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> References: <609b18560811031706t649e779co6d71d82439b17205@mail.gmail.com> <893823750811031807o263fcc8bmbc2ad443e1109720@mail.gmail.com> <1225771918.2856.21.camel@icarus.wilsonet.com> <1225773384.2856.37.camel@icarus.wilsonet.com> <20081104045909.GA28424@liawol.org> <1225830843.3843.109.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> Message-ID: <893823750811041421q63af0158sc0aea079c76dbe55@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 1:34 PM, Jarod Wilson wrote: > Yep. Red Hat has basically come out and said in no uncertain terms, > they're not after the desktop, they're focused on enterprise. There > simply isn't money to be made on the desktop unless you're HUGE (i.e. > Microsoft), while the server market is quite lucrative. Red Hat has > shareholders to appease. I spent a little time reading some rants yesterday about how Shuttleworth is a bastard for funding a free desktop, therein making it nigh impossible for other companies to make money on the desktop. I suppose I'm sort of a hippie insomuch that I think that if he wants to spend money to get people to write GPL code, props to him. It's that simple really. Canonical doesn't have shareholders, which is a good point. Some argue that this puts Ubuntu in a bad place because Shuttleworth runs out of money, Ubuntu is doomed. Others retort that the Ubuntu Foundation still has a cool $10 mil awaiting that day. Whatever, I doubt it will come to that. But it's interesting. > Thing is... Red Hat actually does plenty of innovation on the desktop > too, via Fedora. But Fedora is a bit more leading/bleeding edge than > Ubuntu, more focused on developers than on end-users. Some of the "new" > features that show up rock-solid in Ubuntu are that way because other > distributions already shipped them and worked out the bugs. ;) > > I do agree that the two contribute in very different ways, and that's > not a bad thing, but Ubuntu could stand to improve their involvement > with upstream projects -- I actually think Canonical has finally come to > understand this, and is actively trying to improve the situation. Agreed. I wonder how many people work for Canonical. I just ran into a list of 'notable' employees on the wikipedia page [1] when looking for a number, which probably doesn't exist since they're a private company. Unless it's been dropped in an interview. I would wonder what the social state of affairs is between Scott James Remnant and upstream folk. Regardless, I'm super stoked Canonical exists, and Redhat, and Novell. I pretty much hate SuSE too. I had a SuSE appliance product at an old job and we moved to Ubuntu because YaST was cancerous. I think there's trend that I bail on distributions because their packaging tools are either slow (YaST), give me dependency issues (rpm), or stupid authentication issues (up2date in the 90s). Maybe I'm just a quitter, I'm off topic. In Ubuntu code I've worked in that's come from upstream, it's been a two-way street. But projects like debian-installer, well, most the world probably neither cares nor notices. Greg KH's later response [2] is very sane and commendable. It underlines what we're all saying here. Everyone does something, it's silly to argue as what's better I suppose since it's all reliant on each other. I suppose I'm a proponent of GPL code and whatever code gives me the least heartache on a daily (work mostly) basis is what I <3. In the end, the world understanding and embracing the open source ethos is much more important to me than what software they use. Bryan [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_Ltd. [2] http://www.kroah.com/log/linux/lpc_2008_law_and_gospel.html From steven_coles at yahoo.com Tue Nov 4 15:08:31 2008 From: steven_coles at yahoo.com (Michael_Faraday) Date: Tue Nov 4 15:05:47 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Re: Linux & Amateur Radio In-Reply-To: <20081104040719.GA5857@holmsjoen.com> Message-ID: <257209.92058.qm@web36401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Randolph and everyone, Thank you very much. Thank you for the reminder of the Radio Club of Tacoma, the link to the amateur-radio band wiki and all the other information you found for me. The packet page on the W7DK web site is accessed from the left-side memu bar at http://www.w7dk.org/ The Techy page (same menu bar) has links to a tutorial on the ?Manhattan? electronics project method plus some VHF antennas for their 144-MHz packet system and other VHF uses. I can vouch for the Manhattan method. I built a 50-MHz to 10-MHz receiving frequency converter using that method. Best regards, Steven, KD7YTE in Kenmore at the north end of Lake Washington There's an active radio club in Tacoma. I don't know how computer savvy they are. Search old copies of "The News Tribune" for an article. If that doesn't work out, I'll try to hunt through my archives. Randolph Bentson bentson@holmsjoen.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081104/7874a82e/attachment.html From technoshaman at liawol.org Tue Nov 4 15:16:07 2008 From: technoshaman at liawol.org (Glenn Stone) Date: Tue Nov 4 15:13:25 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] ubuntu - FYI only - no flame war intended In-Reply-To: <893823750811041421q63af0158sc0aea079c76dbe55@mail.gmail.com> References: <609b18560811031706t649e779co6d71d82439b17205@mail.gmail.com> <893823750811031807o263fcc8bmbc2ad443e1109720@mail.gmail.com> <1225771918.2856.21.camel@icarus.wilsonet.com> <1225773384.2856.37.camel@icarus.wilsonet.com> <20081104045909.GA28424@liawol.org> <1225830843.3843.109.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <893823750811041421q63af0158sc0aea079c76dbe55@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081104231607.GC28424@liawol.org> On Tue, Nov 04, 2008 at 03:21:47PM -0700, Bryan McLellan wrote: >Greg KH's later response [2] is very sane and commendable. It >underlines what we're all saying here. Everyone does something, it's >silly to argue as what's better I suppose since it's all reliant on >each other. I suppose I'm a proponent of GPL code and whatever code >gives me the least heartache on a daily (work mostly) basis is what I ><3. In the end, the world understanding and embracing the open source >ethos is much more important to me than what software they use. >[2] http://www.kroah.com/log/linux/lpc_2008_law_and_gospel.html *nods* Definitely agree here with Greg's point. If you're not working someplace where you can give back, vote with your little webbed feet. Dasn't matter *where* you give back.. could be kernel, could be an app, could be artwork, for Seldon's sake. Goes for distros, too. Vote with your fingers, use what works, fix what's broke, and send it upstream. Shove a little, if need be. And also with Bryan's. The ethos is far more important than whose logo comes up when you hit "reboot". -- Glenn From brando.fouts at gmail.com Tue Nov 4 16:45:14 2008 From: brando.fouts at gmail.com (Brandon Fouts) Date: Tue Nov 4 16:42:31 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] ubuntu - FYI only - no flame war intended In-Reply-To: <893823750811031807o263fcc8bmbc2ad443e1109720@mail.gmail.com> References: <609b18560811031706t649e779co6d71d82439b17205@mail.gmail.com> <893823750811031807o263fcc8bmbc2ad443e1109720@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <609b18560811041645i754fa5cds809078ba04ed3f9d@mail.gmail.com> [1] http://mdzlog.wordpress.com/2008/09/17/greg-kh-linux-ecosystem/ - thanks for this one, and I notice that Matt links to Greg KH talk - which is the original source of this controversy. And this is of course much better than my attempt to "remember" Greg's talk. http://www.kroah.com/log/linux/lpc_2008_keynote.html *Jonathan Corbet* report http://lwn.net/Articles/298864/ and Greg KH reply: http://www.kroah.com/log/linux/lpc_2008_law_and_gospel.html [9] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarkShuttleworth This is also a great URL - and Mark explains why ubuntu does NOT post patches upstream to the main kernel. Greg is trying to explain why Greg thinks it better to patch the main kernel. Mark disagrees - I don't understand why - but others will no doubt understand Marks reasoning. All in the FAQ - thanks again. And thanks to all the other replies as well. The internet is just great - you can easily get to original documents - and decide for your self - no need to just listen to opinions of opinions - I just love it. Now if I could just figure out how to do the same in politics in a reasonable amount of time ... PS - [5] - I think this is the original source of JeOS http://www.nexenta.org/os (the idea isn't all that new, just that these guys put it together in open source project style) And it seems many are now following: http://lizards.opensuse.org/2008/07/16/opensuse-gets-the-jeos/ https://help.ubuntu.com/community/JeOSVMBuilder I'm sure RedHat and most others are doing as well - especially for VM and appliances Thank you for your thoughtful replies - I learned a lot. On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 6:07 PM, Bryan McLellan wrote: > On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 6:06 PM, Brandon Fouts > wrote: > > point of interest, to me anyway, was how little ubuntu contributes up > stream > > to the kernel > > > > > for details you might check out: > > http://www.linuxfoundation.org/publications/linuxkerneldevelopment.php > > I would rephrase that to be something like, how little Greg KH (who is > paid by Novell) feels that Canonical (Ubuntu) contributes to the Linux > Kernel and core utilities. Of course one should start by reading Matt > Zimmerman's (CTO of Canonical) response to the whole fiasco. [1] > > > Individuals are - as you'll read at above URL - by far the biggest > > contributors at almost 27% and you will note that ubuntu does not make it > > into the top 30 - I think they Debian was at least twice perhaps three > times > > more patches over the last 2 or 3 years. Now this all gets complex, and > only > > those that have real open source interests - like in licenses or software > > patents or copyrights - might want to understand why Mark Shuttleworth is > > taking but not giving back to the "community" and I'll let you > investigate > > that on your own. small hint: something to appartantly with vendors that > > won't open up drivers to open source, but will license to ubuntu. > > I don't see debian or ubuntu mentioned anywhere at that link. I see a > list of companies, sponsoring work, but Debian isn't there. That is to > be expected, as AFAIK I know there is not an Debian Project entity. > The trademark is owned by SPI. [2] I think you'll find most > individuals in that list are paid employees of the companies listed in > a later table. Many, if not most, of the companies listed in that > table are hardware companies. Of course they'll need developers to get > kernel support for their hardware. Canonical sells no hardware, nor > tries to market to the enterprise like Redhat with features like GFS. > > I would argue that the goal of Ubuntu has not been to make it run on > SGI hardware, but to make Linux more friendly and usable for many > people. According to DesktopLinux.com's 2007 survey [3] they're > certainly achieving that. How do you calculate the benefit the Linux > community as a whole gets from all of the new people and interest > Canonical has gathered? > > Bringing up Debian is interesting. Many of the Canonical people I've > worked with directly on IRC were Debian Developers to begin with. See > Colin Watson for instance [8]. Debian and Ubuntu are closely tied and > from what I've seen the majority of Ubuntu work get's pushed back > upstream to debian. It's part of the philosophy of Ubuntu [4] and it > certainly makes sense (Avoiding Not Invented Here/NIH). > > > The general take, from the developers at LPC was that it was best to > support > > those distros that actually contribute and are trying to make Linux > better > > for us all - and note, IMHO, about 50% of the developers were running > ubuntu > > on their personal laptops - but after learning these facts, that number > is > > probably lower. > > I think if you look you'll see that Canonical paid developers do a ton > of work in the Linux Community. Probably not in the Kernel, but I know > in my personal experience I see as much work in virtualization come > out of Canonical [5] as I do from Redhat [6]. Redhat owns qumranet > now, but you won't see many kernel (api) changes in KVM, which is > exactly the point of the approach. Try to get libvirt/kvm running on > Debian, then try on Ubuntu and come back to me. > > There's lots of work being done in Canonical from the user > perspective. I don't pay any attention here, but it's essential in > solving LP bug 1 [7] in my opinion and I congratulate them for doing > it. > > > I only mention this, as I hope ubuntu will be "shamed" into becoming a > > better contributor to the kernel code work - or at least stop bragging > about > > how much of a contributor they are, when clearly they are not. > > Please link to bragging. Pics or it didn't happen. > > > > Sorry to have posted such a long message on such an esoteric topic, and I > > know many will not really care - and I must say I often recommend Mac to > > non-power users if they can afford Apple prices, and to newbies, I also > > recommend ubuntu as the most potentially "trouble free" and now you may > have > > some insights as to why ubuntu seems to get some drivers right that other > > distros miss. BSD another fine choices - it is nice to have choices. > > Ubuntu is willing to release binary drivers. Many distributions > aren't. There's strong reasons for not doing this, but if you want to > increase the user base of Linux you're going to have to reduce the > number of people saying "I installed Linux but my video > card/wireless/etc didn't work". Until Linux has a high user base, one > really can't force the hardware makers into writing decent open source > drivers for their gear. > > > Novell/SUSE (and some would include openSUSE) and Microsoft is of course > > yet another complex situation - but at least RH and Novell don't just > take > > care of their own corporate distros, they both have fedora/openSUSE AND > they > > actually pay developers to write code/patches for the kernel. They know > > helping the community helps improve the code base which will eventually > end > > up in their corporate distros. > > I don't really know what to say to this paragraph. The accusation that > Canonical is somehow working in it's own self interest is pretty > absurd and I would have to ask to what ends? Support? Redhat, Novell, > others, they HAVE corporate distributions which cost money. Canonical > does not, and won't. Please, please, read Mark Shuttleworth's FAQ on > this subject [9]. > > Bryan McLellan > http://loftninjas.org > > [1] http://mdzlog.wordpress.com/2008/09/17/greg-kh-linux-ecosystem/ > [2] http://www.debian.org/trademark > [3] > http://www.desktoplinux.com/cgi-bin/survey/survey.cgi?view=archive&id=0813200712407 > [4] http://www.ubuntu.com/community/ubuntustory/debian > [5] https://help.ubuntu.com/community/JeOSVMBuilder > [6] http://et.redhat.com/page/Main_Page > [7] https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1 > [8] https://launchpad.net/~kamion > [9] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarkShuttleworth > -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= www.psnug.org Puget Sound Network Users Group Building Technical Skills Through Teamwork And Education. Helping members realize Open Standards and investigate Open Source. _____________________ PSNUG dues/food $35 per year -21st anniversary coffee mug that you can pickup at any meeting - no we don't ship. pay at monthly meeting or send checks payable to: PSNUG PSNUG c/o Brandon Fouts 9549a Olympus Beach Rd NE Bainbridge Island, WA 98110-3446 ==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081104/b83a233d/attachment-0001.htm From btm at loftninjas.org Tue Nov 4 16:58:44 2008 From: btm at loftninjas.org (Bryan McLellan) Date: Tue Nov 4 16:55:59 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] ubuntu - FYI only - no flame war intended In-Reply-To: <609b18560811041645i754fa5cds809078ba04ed3f9d@mail.gmail.com> References: <609b18560811031706t649e779co6d71d82439b17205@mail.gmail.com> <893823750811031807o263fcc8bmbc2ad443e1109720@mail.gmail.com> <609b18560811041645i754fa5cds809078ba04ed3f9d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <893823750811041658q5abbe7ecm858f7937d892b8c2@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 5:45 PM, Brandon Fouts wrote: > [9] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarkShuttleworth > This is also a great URL - and Mark explains why ubuntu does NOT post > patches upstream to the main kernel. Greg is trying to explain why Greg > thinks it better to patch the main kernel. Mark disagrees - I don't > understand why - but others will no doubt understand Marks reasoning. All in > the FAQ - thanks again. I think I missed this. A search through this page for 'kernel' doesn't bring any paragraphs talking about Canonical/Ubuntu having a policy against sending kernel patches upstream. There is some talk about binary compatibility, and why Ubuntu doesn't try to maintain this. I don't think many distributions do. Being able to take a program from Ubuntu Hardy and run it on FC5 would greatly limit the progress these distributions could make in the way of new features. > I think this is the original source of JeOS http://www.nexenta.org/os Nexenta is pretty neat. I like some of the stuff (ZFS) coming out of Sun. Nexenta gives you GNU/OpenSolaris, so you can stick one foot in. I don't believe JeOS is related to Nexenta. At OSCon this year the Ubuntu Server team was apologizing for the 'Juice' name still being around. The idea for JEOS is simply to create the smallest Ubuntu slice possible to make VMs tight. From frcaen at gmail.com Tue Nov 4 17:40:31 2008 From: frcaen at gmail.com (Francois Caen) Date: Tue Nov 4 17:37:46 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Linux Education In-Reply-To: <723916.58224.qm@web36405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <723916.58224.qm@web36405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <58cfe2840811041740w7d9fc444h619e7a095c777382@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 10:02 AM, Michael_Faraday wrote: > The good news for shell users is the 3 > most common derive from UNIX shells. They have a lot in common (at least for > the skills my various employers have wanted). And bash is really predominant. So by learning one shell, you acquire very portable unix skills. That's part of the idea behind my book series (Linux Toolbox). -- Francois Caen From jarod at wilsonet.com Tue Nov 4 18:50:13 2008 From: jarod at wilsonet.com (Jarod Wilson) Date: Tue Nov 4 18:47:34 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] ubuntu - FYI only - no flame war intended In-Reply-To: <893823750811041421q63af0158sc0aea079c76dbe55@mail.gmail.com> References: <609b18560811031706t649e779co6d71d82439b17205@mail.gmail.com> <893823750811031807o263fcc8bmbc2ad443e1109720@mail.gmail.com> <1225771918.2856.21.camel@icarus.wilsonet.com> <1225773384.2856.37.camel@icarus.wilsonet.com> <20081104045909.GA28424@liawol.org> <1225830843.3843.109.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <893823750811041421q63af0158sc0aea079c76dbe55@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1225853413.3633.51.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> On Tue, 2008-11-04 at 15:21 -0700, Bryan McLellan wrote: > > Thing is... Red Hat actually does plenty of innovation on the > > desktop too, via Fedora. But Fedora is a bit more leading/bleeding > > edge than Ubuntu, more focused on developers than on end-users. Some > > of the "new" features that show up rock-solid in Ubuntu are that way > > because other distributions already shipped them and worked out the > > bugs. ;) > > > > I do agree that the two contribute in very different ways, and > > that's not a bad thing, but Ubuntu could stand to improve their > > involvement with upstream projects -- I actually think Canonical has > > finally come to understand this, and is actively trying to improve > > the situation. > > Agreed. I wonder how many people work for Canonical. Last I heard, around 120 people. Red Hat is somewhere north of 2500 now. Fwiw, note that the wiki page you referenced shows a "100+ Canonical employees" photo at an "All Hands" company meeting in 2007, so ~120 seems at least a reasonable estimate. > I just ran into a > list of 'notable' employees on the wikipedia page [1] when looking for > a number, which probably doesn't exist since they're a private > company. Unless it's been dropped in an interview. I would wonder what > the social state of affairs is between Scott James Remnant and > upstream folk. Regardless, I'm super stoked Canonical exists, and > Redhat, and Novell. I pretty much hate SuSE too. I had a SuSE > appliance product at an old job and we moved to Ubuntu because YaST > was cancerous. I think there's trend that I bail on distributions > because their packaging tools are either slow (YaST), I'm with ya on this one. I had to use a lot of SLES at my prior employer, the now defunct Linux Networx. We actually typically ended up neutering YaST, because it always caused way more problems for customers than it was worth. Linux Networx actually *preferred* RHEL, but Novell was selling SLES licenses for dirt-cheap, and Red Hat had no HPC-tailored offering yet... > give me dependency issues (rpm), Honestly, rpm dependency issues haven't been a serious issue in years. There's really very little difference between using apt with dpkg and using yum with rpm, in my experience, and hell, if you like, you can even use apt with rpm. And yum was admittedly kinda terrible early on (i.e. Fedora Core 1 days), and I used to punt it in favor of apt, but yum is really quite good these days. > or stupid authentication issues (up2date in the 90s). Yeah, not a fan of up2date either. > Maybe I'm just a quitter, I'm off topic. In Ubuntu code I've > worked in that's come from upstream, it's been a two-way street. I don't doubt it actually is a two-way street in some areas of the ecosystem. But I should probably make it clear that I'm a kernel guy, paid to work on the Linux kernel. Oh, and its Red Hat that pays me. :) Interestingly, one of my buddies on the Fedora kernel team, Kyle McMartin, came to Red Hat from Canonical. He's got some interesting stories... And he's much happier these days. > But > projects like debian-installer, well, most the world probably neither > cares nor notices. Yeah, installers are somewhat distro-specific, and that's not likely to change, although I'll note that its Red Hat's anaconda installer that multiple offshoots of non-RH distros have tried adapting to their own packaging systems... :) (Ian Murdock's Progeny did a Debian-ish distro that featured anaconda at one point, and there's a Gentoo-based distro that currently uses it, not sure about others). > Greg KH's later response [2] is very sane and commendable. It > underlines what we're all saying here. Everyone does something, it's > silly to argue as what's better I suppose since it's all reliant on > each other. I suppose I'm a proponent of GPL code and whatever code > gives me the least heartache on a daily (work mostly) basis is what I > <3. In the end, the world understanding and embracing the open source > ethos is much more important to me than what software they use. Agree 100% with the last sentence there. I just get worked up when I think Red Hat isn't getting the recognition it really deserves for all the work it does upstream for the benefit *all* Linux distributions. :) -- Jarod Wilson jarod@wilsonet.com From pencil_pusher at hotmail.com Wed Nov 5 01:05:57 2008 From: pencil_pusher at hotmail.com (David) Date: Wed Nov 5 01:08:09 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Ubuntu, ATI, Compiz, Dual Monitor Fun References: <90312f880811011835r6d3aca7dt6ffd63e290aaf822@mail.gmail.com><893823750811030939tf83c544j9db8bc93eb74cb20@mail.gmail.com> <20081103174258.GO13302@liawol.org> Message-ID: Is that the 780g chipset? Just inquiring because there was a new fglrx driver from ati on the ubuntu64 ibex flavor for a 780g tablet. Don't know about twin view... and too new to the scene to hate, daamit. > On Mon, Nov 03, 2008 at 10:39:30AM -0700, Bryan McLellan wrote: >>On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 6:35 PM, Aaron Appelbaum >>wrote: >>> I am hoping that someone on this list is an ATI expert. I just installed >>> Ibex, but I have been having the problem described below on prior >>> versions >>> of Ubuntu. >> >>I share the general ATI hate. My desktop at work has an ATI card and I >>just miss twinview. I settled for running without compiz back when I >>was having problems, and I haven't tried to configure it since. I am >>running intrepid now. >> >>I found [1] clearing my xorg.conf and running aticonfig to get the >>best results, such as: >> >>aticonfig ?initial=dual-head ?dtop=horizontal >> >>It's the closest I've gotten to twinview. > > Oof, thanks for the heads up, gang. Anybody had Issues with ATI and a > *single* monitor on Ibex? I've got a Dell small-form-factor desktop with > the ATI enhanced graphics.... works nice under Hardy, and might keep it > that > way for a while, but wanted to know if there was a good reason not to > switch.... > > -- Glenn > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > From brando.fouts at gmail.com Wed Nov 5 07:18:58 2008 From: brando.fouts at gmail.com (Brandon Fouts) Date: Wed Nov 5 07:16:18 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Fwd: [Webinar] Tomorrow: HPC Clusters with Windows HPC Server 2008 In-Reply-To: <20081105142130.A7447E802540@elabs7.com> References: <20081105142130.A7447E802540@elabs7.com> Message-ID: <609b18560811050718t1960018cj6fc6a59d6ac14eda@mail.gmail.com> oh the power of money - who would have expected this? (or just a reflection of corporate reality - mixed LAN environments) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Linux Magazine Date: Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 6:21 AM Subject: [Webinar] Tomorrow: HPC Clusters with Windows HPC Server 2008 To: brando.fouts@gmail.com [image: Home] [image: Hardware] [image: Software] [image: Systems Management] [image: Industry Solutions] [image: Magazine] The Linux Magazine Webinar Update New Webinar High Performance Computing (HPC) Clusters: Reduce Complexity with IBM and Microsoft Please join us for an informative and exciting webcast with IBM and Microsoft. No matter where you are located in the world, IBM has an HPC cluster solution that is easy to deploy. Learn how IBM can help you reduce the risk and manage growth more easily with the pre-tested, easy-to-deply, easy-to-manage IBM Cluster 1350 solution, and how when combined with Windows HPC Server 2008 you can leverage your current Windows server expertise to accelerate your time to insight on computational analysis. Whether you are a financial analyst or engineer our Windows based HPC cluster will meet the demand of your computational needs. *When: * *Thursday, November 6, 2008* Live: 11:00 AM Eastern | 8:00 AM Pacific | 3:00 PM GMT *Hosts:* *Daniel Ghidali* Solution Architect - Windows HPC Clusters IBM Center for Microsoft Technologies *Duration:* 60 minutes Register Now Contact Linux Magazine Newsletters are distributed by: *QuarterPower Media* San Francisco, California 94107 Are you having trouble with this newsletter or the Linux Magazine website? Please send an email to support@linux-mag.com. Have questions or comments about Linux Magazine's online properties? Send them to: *Bryan Richard* VP, Community and Infrastructure brichard@linux-mag.com Subscription Information This Email was sent to *brando.fouts@gmail.com* Click hereto change your email address. Click hereto unsubscribe from this newsletter. Click hereto manage all of your Linux Magazine newsletter subscriptions. Copyright 1999-2008, QuarterPower Media, LLC. -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= www.psnug.org Puget Sound Network Users Group Building Technical Skills Through Teamwork And Education. Helping members realize Open Standards and investigate Open Source. _____________________ PSNUG dues/food $35 per year -21st anniversary coffee mug that you can pickup at any meeting - no we don't ship. pay at monthly meeting or send checks payable to: PSNUG PSNUG c/o Brandon Fouts 9549a Olympus Beach Rd NE Bainbridge Island, WA 98110-3446 ==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081105/768f3b03/attachment-0001.html From btm at loftninjas.org Wed Nov 5 11:38:58 2008 From: btm at loftninjas.org (Bryan McLellan) Date: Wed Nov 5 11:46:26 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] November 8th Meeting at Widemile Message-ID: <893823750811051138i5c64024fr730d962d7617123f@mail.gmail.com> We were unable to arrange meeting at Speakeasy again this month so we will be hosting this months meeting in Downtown Seattle at Widemile's offices in the Puget Sound Plaza. Please RSVP and if you can add a talk to the meeting page [1]. We'll meet at the normal time of noon, at 1325 4th Avenue in downtown Seattle.. This is another secured building and someone will be there to bring you up to the 16th floor in the elevator. Bryan [1] http://www.gslug.org/index.php?title=Meeting_2008-11-08 From ahaydock at gmail.com Wed Nov 5 11:52:40 2008 From: ahaydock at gmail.com (Andrew Haydock) Date: Wed Nov 5 11:50:10 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] November 8th Meeting at Widemile In-Reply-To: <893823750811051138i5c64024fr730d962d7617123f@mail.gmail.com> References: <893823750811051138i5c64024fr730d962d7617123f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: For the new people...new to Linux and to the user group, what should we bring/do etc.? Aside from signing up on the web page. Andrew On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 11:38 AM, Bryan McLellan wrote: > We were unable to arrange meeting at Speakeasy again this month so we > will be hosting this months meeting in Downtown Seattle at Widemile's > offices in the Puget Sound Plaza. > > Please RSVP and if you can add a talk to the meeting page [1]. We'll > meet at the normal time of noon, at 1325 4th Avenue in downtown > Seattle.. This is another secured building and someone will be there > to bring you up to the 16th floor in the elevator. > > Bryan > > [1] http://www.gslug.org/index.php?title=Meeting_2008-11-08 > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081105/becfd516/attachment.htm From ashex at chipnick.com Wed Nov 5 11:56:50 2008 From: ashex at chipnick.com (Ahmed Osman) Date: Wed Nov 5 11:53:56 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] November 8th Meeting at Widemile In-Reply-To: References: <893823750811051138i5c64024fr730d962d7617123f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1069304911-1225915003-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1316621708-@bxe340.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> We suggest a sacrifice of some sort, preferably something closed source, we must appease our GNU god. Virgin sacrifices accepted. I haven't been to one in awhile, but all you really need is yourself and a laptop depending on the talk Sent Via Blackberry -----Original Message----- From: "Andrew Haydock" Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 11:52:40 To: Subject: Re: [Gslug-general] November 8th Meeting at Widemile _______________________________________________ Gslug-general mailing list Gslug-general@gslug.org http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general From crash at neg9.org Wed Nov 5 12:01:46 2008 From: crash at neg9.org (Ian Gallagher) Date: Wed Nov 5 12:00:06 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] November 8th Meeting at Widemile In-Reply-To: <1069304911-1225915003-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1316621708-@bxe340.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <893823750811051138i5c64024fr730d962d7617123f@mail.gmail.com> <1069304911-1225915003-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1316621708-@bxe340.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <4b5c15340811051201n6f8d068haf53a63c98c6403f@mail.gmail.com> =) Indeed - theres nothing you "need" to bring, just yourself and preferably an eagerness to learn and share knowledge. If you have any neat projects going on that you'd like to share or collaborate one, bring them along! There's also plenty of people that would probably be interested in starting projects, or talks. Everyone - please regard any info from Bryan as defacto information for the meeting this month, and potentially in the future. Speakeasy was unable to host for us again this month, unfortunately. Thanks Bryan! -Ian On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 14:56, Ahmed Osman wrote: > We suggest a sacrifice of some sort, preferably something closed source, we > must appease our GNU god. Virgin sacrifices accepted. > > I haven't been to one in awhile, but all you really need is yourself and a > laptop depending on the talk > Sent Via Blackberry > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Andrew Haydock" > > Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 11:52:40 > To: > Subject: Re: [Gslug-general] November 8th Meeting at Widemile > > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081105/c1de3954/attachment.html From steven_coles at yahoo.com Wed Nov 5 12:06:50 2008 From: steven_coles at yahoo.com (Michael_Faraday) Date: Wed Nov 5 12:04:03 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] OT: Early Computer Experiences In-Reply-To: <20081105060844.GA15652@holmsjoen.com> Message-ID: <458989.68362.qm@web36408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Randolph, UPS was certainly in a major transition stage during my three years there. Like you, I was into computers from a very early age. But that started around 1956. Mentors hardly existed. About all I could do at that time was a crude grade-school show and tell about using a battery, some spring contacts, and a few flash-light bulbs to detect punches in Hollerith cards. About 1960 one Irv Schmitt (an amateur radio operator and Air-Force officer) returned from the Air Force's computer hardware school in Billoxy, Mississippi. He couldn't tell me anything about about the Air Force's radar control and real-time data analysis computers. But he excelled at teaching discrete gates and flip-flops from transistor manufacturers' literature. Mid 1964, Devon Edrington, my philosophy teacher introduced me to Kirby Snodgrass. Kirby had gone to Edrigton for advice about transferring his knowledge of Boolean logic from relays to discretel transistor circuits. Edrington taught logic strictly from the abstract math and philosophy viewpoints. As I'd mentioned logic circuits in Edrington's class, he introduced me to Kirby. Kirby goaded me into constructing circuits (still discrete) beyond the one and two gate scale. We kept our eyes on ICs. But we didn't get started until we were to far into our machine to change our approach. (Kirby christened our machine Large Slow and Dismal and abbreviated the name to LSD.) We never finished it. But by the time we'd built three 12-bit registers, some half adders and full adders, we'd gained massive insight into computer architecture. Regards, Steven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081105/175044a1/attachment.htm From david.blomstrom at gmail.com Wed Nov 5 14:18:12 2008 From: david.blomstrom at gmail.com (David Blomstrom) Date: Wed Nov 5 14:15:26 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Re: Delivery Status Notification (Failure) In-Reply-To: <0015174c363ecb37e0045af7920b@googlemail.com> References: <188dd7de0811051257k780ee59fua5b4849acd14df0a@mail.gmail.com> <0015174c363ecb37e0045af7920b@googlemail.com> Message-ID: <188dd7de0811051418kbe9194aud63cf9e15838971d@mail.gmail.com> I participated in a few GSlug meetings years ago before deciding I wasn't ready for Linux. I was content after upgrading from a PC to a Mac but recently installed Ubuntu on a new netbook, and am quite impressed with it. I would like to learn how to develop websites on all three platforms. However, I need a little help getting started. I'm especially confused about connecting to the Internet. I'm switching from Comcast to Verizon so I can go mobile, but I haven't even been able to connect via Windows (Windows XP and Ubuntu are both installed on my netbook), and Verizon's Linux support is all over the map. I've been asking questions on various forums, but the responses have only confused me more. So I would to talk to someone face to face and ask them "How do YOU connect to the Internet?" What service should I use (Verizon, Sprint, etc.), and do I have to buy a special modem, card, etc.? Second, though I find the terminal easy enough to use, I haven't been able to do something as simple as install a software program (XAMPP), even following online instructions. I would like to find someone willing to show me how to do it, while I take notes. It shouldn't take more than five minutes. A third issue I'm trying to solve involves an Apple wireless printer. I figured out how to "pair" it with Ubuntu, and it was working fine - until I rebooted. Now it's "vanished." If I click Bluetooth to set up a new device, I can't proceed, because my keyboard no longer registers. It's as if it never existed. I have a hunch it's actually a simple problem - the keyboard is still registered, but I need to do something to trigger or reawaken it. I thought some members of your group might have experience with the same keyboard. Anyway, if I attended your next meeting, would I be able to ask these questions - not to the entire group, but to individual members who might have a few free moments? Also, when and where IS your next meeting? On one web page, it's advertised as next Wednesday, but it's marked as noon on this coming Saturday (November 8). The map doesn't work, so I'm not sure what the address is. Thank you. David B. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081105/98158aaa/attachment.html From btm at loftninjas.org Wed Nov 5 14:30:35 2008 From: btm at loftninjas.org (Bryan McLellan) Date: Wed Nov 5 14:27:50 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Re: Delivery Status Notification (Failure) In-Reply-To: <188dd7de0811051418kbe9194aud63cf9e15838971d@mail.gmail.com> References: <188dd7de0811051257k780ee59fua5b4849acd14df0a@mail.gmail.com> <0015174c363ecb37e0045af7920b@googlemail.com> <188dd7de0811051418kbe9194aud63cf9e15838971d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <893823750811051430g1ff60d61wda9485a72162fa47@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 2:18 PM, David Blomstrom wrote: > So I would to talk to someone face to face and ask them "How do YOU connect > to the Internet?" What service should I use (Verizon, Sprint, etc.), and do > I have to buy a special modem, card, etc.? Most internet service provides give you a device (DSL Modem, cable modem) that gives you an ethernet connection. Best thing to do is ask them if this is a 'router' and if not, buy a Linksys router from your local big box store. You hook the modem into the 'internet' jack on the router, then plug your Ubuntu system into one of the other ethernet jacks. The router will provide DHCP which automatically configures your network settings. Windows and Ubuntu both default to using DHCP. > Second, though I find the terminal easy enough to use, I haven't been able > to do something as simple as install a software program (XAMPP), even > following online instructions. I would like to find someone willing to show > me how to do it, while I take notes. It shouldn't take more than five > minutes. The upcoming meeting would be a great time to ask someone any questions you have. For installing software in Ubuntu check out Synaptic: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SynapticHowto When you speak of 'XAMPP' are you referring to http://www.apachefriends.org/en/xampp.html ? Installing apache and such from the command line is a matter of: sudo apt-get install apache2 You should find Synaptic much easier, although it's less powerful than interacting with apt/dpkg directly. > Anyway, if I attended your next meeting, would I be able to ask these > questions - not to the entire group, but to individual members who might > have a few free moments? Yes, after the talks there's time to ask questions and get help from the group. > Also, when and where IS your next meeting? On one web page, it's advertised > as next Wednesday, but it's marked as noon on this coming Saturday (November > 8). The map doesn't work, so I'm not sure what the address is. This Saturday the 8th at noon at Widemile at 1325 4th Avenue, Suite 1600, Seattle, WA Bryan From jtgray79 at gmail.com Wed Nov 5 17:52:27 2008 From: jtgray79 at gmail.com (Jeremiah T Gray) Date: Wed Nov 5 17:49:56 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] November 8th Meeting at Widemile In-Reply-To: <893823750811051138i5c64024fr730d962d7617123f@mail.gmail.com> References: <893823750811051138i5c64024fr730d962d7617123f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I would like to give a quick talk; do I just put it in the wiki? Sent from my iPhone On Nov 5, 2008, at 11:38 AM, "Bryan McLellan" wrote: > We were unable to arrange meeting at Speakeasy again this month so we > will be hosting this months meeting in Downtown Seattle at Widemile's > offices in the Puget Sound Plaza. > > Please RSVP and if you can add a talk to the meeting page [1]. We'll > meet at the normal time of noon, at 1325 4th Avenue in downtown > Seattle.. This is another secured building and someone will be there > to bring you up to the 16th floor in the elevator. > > Bryan > > [1] http://www.gslug.org/index.php?title=Meeting_2008-11-08 > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general From btm at loftninjas.org Wed Nov 5 17:55:14 2008 From: btm at loftninjas.org (Bryan McLellan) Date: Wed Nov 5 17:52:33 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] November 8th Meeting at Widemile In-Reply-To: References: <893823750811051138i5c64024fr730d962d7617123f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <893823750811051755vbd577cbv3eb82ba0720028cf@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 5:52 PM, Jeremiah T Gray wrote: > I would like to give a quick talk; do I just put it in the wiki? Yup, just go ahead and edit the spot in the wiki. Be sure to add your name to your talk and a short description. Thanks! From ashex at chipnick.com Wed Nov 5 18:46:40 2008 From: ashex at chipnick.com (Ahmed Osman) Date: Wed Nov 5 18:44:11 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] November 8th Meeting at Widemile In-Reply-To: <893823750811051755vbd577cbv3eb82ba0720028cf@mail.gmail.com> References: <893823750811051138i5c64024fr730d962d7617123f@mail.gmail.com> <893823750811051755vbd577cbv3eb82ba0720028cf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49125A90.5020001@chipnick.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 This might be an interesting topic for after the actual talks, but it may be fun to talk about ways of reducing start times and performance on systems. I thought of this after I finally got bootchart to work and discovered what happens when you misconfigure readahead: http://chipnick.com/Bucket/intrepid-20081105-1.png - -Ahmed Bryan McLellan wrote: > On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 5:52 PM, Jeremiah T Gray wrote: >> I would like to give a quick talk; do I just put it in the wiki? > > Yup, just go ahead and edit the spot in the wiki. Be sure to add your > name to your talk and a short description. > > Thanks! > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkkSWpAACgkQmamAFmguZ59hDwCaA1VukqFy7NYWpv9WHAUlXPMw N1wAoKDQRM0mp7j8MmDKQC6Re9fuWtmU =+Ooz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081105/0c4d4589/attachment.htm From steven_coles at yahoo.com Thu Nov 6 09:17:45 2008 From: steven_coles at yahoo.com (Michael_Faraday) Date: Thu Nov 6 09:14:59 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Linux Education--Free Books in PDF In-Reply-To: <58cfe2840811041740w7d9fc444h619e7a095c777382@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <246021.2181.qm@web36408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081106/0a00e15e/attachment.html From btm at loftninjas.org Fri Nov 7 13:34:34 2008 From: btm at loftninjas.org (Bryan McLellan) Date: Fri Nov 7 13:31:49 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Re: Linux Virtualization, was: ubuntu - FYI only - no flame war intended In-Reply-To: <1225829627.3843.100.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> References: <893823750811032234o72e17651mb1fdc9e8a764b58b@mail.gmail.com> <1225818599.3843.67.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <20081104172740.GC20047@seattlefenix.net> <1225829627.3843.100.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> Message-ID: <893823750811071334p70704b3ar93225730300cc5b5@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 12:13 PM, Jarod Wilson wrote: > Bashing Canonical was not my intent, just trying to get some facts out > there about what they've contributed to virtualization vs. Red Hat. I talked to Scott Dodson [at Redhat] about this a bit, because we share an IRC channel, and he's smart and all that. He shared similar sentiments: 17:55 < sdodson> Canonical is good at community shit, even for projects they don't really do a whole lot with. 17:56 < sdodson> My general impression is that RHT excels at low level shit and the heavy lifting. Canonical puts a nice shine on it. I think that summarizes the discussion well. I recently found a virt-manager bug that I believed was a regression. Virt-manager assumes [xen/qemu]+ssh uri's should log in to the remote host as root. After much digging found it was an Ubuntu packaging regression because earlier deb's had patched this to not be the case. Now granted, I'm fairly familiar with launchpad, but I couldn't find a bug tracker on the Redhat ET site, and eventually filed the bug [1] in the general bugzilla for redhat, which the majority of the virt-manager bugs there had not been responded to and were marked as new still. In this context, it doesn't mean that Redhat isn't working on the code, it's just not interacting with the community as much. Filing a bug on launchpad [2] got me a response from a developer in five hours. It's probably inevitable that Canonical will continue to get more attention because of the size of their user base. FC appears to be an attempt to regain the community after around Redhat 6, and I commend that, and I assume it helps; but I don't interact with that community or see it. > Virtualization strikes me as an area they really haven't done squat > compared w/Red Hat, and yet we've got folks on this list, who appear to > be intelligent, education individuals, with the impression Canonical has > done just as much as Red Hat in the virtualization space. The JeOS > vmbuilder is the only thing I can see that Canonical has actually > contributed any code to (though I've not looked to see if they've sent > patches in for libvirt or virt-manager). Red Hat has 40+ kernel kvm code > contributions (on top of those from Qumranet employees), and wrote > libvirt and virt-manager. As we've discussed in the parent thread, I'm not really interested in who's done the most work. I think I cleared up that I speak from what I see. If code or community or documentation is better is like arguing over abortion or guns [in America]. I did look at some old kvm-userbase commits and see that your right about pre-quramnet redhat commits, but I didn't find the time to go back to look at the kvm-kernel git repo. A slashdot article about Redhat + AMD demostrating cross cpu/architecture guest migration [3] came through my feed today, which prompted the time to write this response and acknowledge Redhat for it. I'm a KVM evangelist, so props to Redhat. Bryan [1] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=470416 [2] https://bugs.launchpad.net/virt-manager/+bug/294965 [3] http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/11/07/1535235&from=rss From btm at loftninjas.org Fri Nov 7 15:52:06 2008 From: btm at loftninjas.org (Bryan McLellan) Date: Fri Nov 7 15:49:18 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Re: November 8th Meeting at Widemile In-Reply-To: <893823750811051138i5c64024fr730d962d7617123f@mail.gmail.com> References: <893823750811051138i5c64024fr730d962d7617123f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <893823750811071552v165a890dm1d41aa9b92376ab4@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 11:38 AM, Bryan McLellan wrote: > We were unable to arrange meeting at Speakeasy again this month so we > will be hosting this months meeting in Downtown Seattle at Widemile's > offices in the Puget Sound Plaza. > > Please RSVP and if you can add a talk to the meeting page [1]. We'll > meet at the normal time of noon, at 1325 4th Avenue in downtown > Seattle.. This is another secured building and someone will be there > to bring you up to the 16th floor in the elevator. > > [1] http://www.gslug.org/index.php?title=Meeting_2008-11-08 There still room to add a short talk about something you love/hate/use. Now is the time to achieve fame and fortune by getting up on a soap box about your favorite open source project. Bryan From ashex at chipnick.com Fri Nov 7 17:44:21 2008 From: ashex at chipnick.com (Ahmed Osman) Date: Fri Nov 7 17:41:21 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Re: November 8th Meeting at Widemile Message-ID: <1805229248-1226108645-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-6296544-@bxe340.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Really random, but does Anyone want a cupcake from cupcake royale? ------Original Message------ From: Bryan McLellan Sender: To: gslug-general@gslug.org Subject: [Gslug-general] Re: November 8th Meeting at Widemile Sent: Nov 7, 2008 3:52 PM On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 11:38 AM, Bryan McLellan wrote: > We were unable to arrange meeting at Speakeasy again this month so we > will be hosting this months meeting in Downtown Seattle at Widemile's > offices in the Puget Sound Plaza. > > Please RSVP and if you can add a talk to the meeting page [1]. We'll > meet at the normal time of noon, at 1325 4th Avenue in downtown > Seattle.. This is another secured building and someone will be there > to bring you up to the 16th floor in the elevator. > > [1] http://www.gslug.org/index.php?title=Meeting_2008-11-08 There still room to add a short talk about something you love/hate/use. Now is the time to achieve fame and fortune by getting up on a soap box about your favorite open source project. Bryan _______________________________________________ Gslug-general mailing list Gslug-general@gslug.org http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general Sent Via Blackberry From crash at neg9.org Fri Nov 7 19:03:27 2008 From: crash at neg9.org (Ian Gallagher) Date: Fri Nov 7 19:00:39 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Re: November 8th Meeting at Widemile In-Reply-To: <1805229248-1226108645-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-6296544-@bxe340.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <1805229248-1226108645-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-6296544-@bxe340.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <4b5c15340811071903k16b1a0fw7932214a57d47b15@mail.gmail.com> Everyone should want a cupcake from cupcake royale! (I won't be there, so don't count me, but seriously folks! :)) -Ian On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 20:44, Ahmed Osman wrote: > Really random, but does Anyone want a cupcake from cupcake royale? > > > > ------Original Message------ > From: Bryan McLellan > Sender: > To: gslug-general@gslug.org > Subject: [Gslug-general] Re: November 8th Meeting at Widemile > Sent: Nov 7, 2008 3:52 PM > > On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 11:38 AM, Bryan McLellan > wrote: > > We were unable to arrange meeting at Speakeasy again this month so we > > will be hosting this months meeting in Downtown Seattle at Widemile's > > offices in the Puget Sound Plaza. > > > > Please RSVP and if you can add a talk to the meeting page [1]. We'll > > meet at the normal time of noon, at 1325 4th Avenue in downtown > > Seattle.. This is another secured building and someone will be there > > to bring you up to the 16th floor in the elevator. > > > > [1] http://www.gslug.org/index.php?title=Meeting_2008-11-08 > > There still room to add a short talk about something you > love/hate/use. Now is the time to achieve fame and fortune by getting > up on a soap box about your favorite open source project. > > Bryan > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > > > Sent Via Blackberry > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081107/42690ce4/attachment.htm From btm at loftninjas.org Fri Nov 7 19:48:58 2008 From: btm at loftninjas.org (Bryan McLellan) Date: Fri Nov 7 19:46:11 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Re: November 8th Meeting at Widemile In-Reply-To: <1805229248-1226108645-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-6296544-@bxe340.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <1805229248-1226108645-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-6296544-@bxe340.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <893823750811071948o83a9327w6393d343c5415e59@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 5:44 PM, Ahmed Osman wrote: > Really random, but does Anyone want a cupcake from cupcake royale? Yeah, bring all the cupcakes you can. There's no food commitment, so we'll have to gather up some snacks. From ashex at chipnick.com Fri Nov 7 19:52:42 2008 From: ashex at chipnick.com (Ahmed Osman) Date: Fri Nov 7 19:50:04 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Re: November 8th Meeting at Widemile In-Reply-To: <893823750811071948o83a9327w6393d343c5415e59@mail.gmail.com> References: <1805229248-1226108645-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-6296544-@bxe340.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <893823750811071948o83a9327w6393d343c5415e59@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49150D0A.3080906@chipnick.com> Sounds good. I'll bring 1.5 dozen tomorrow. Let me know what kind you want, http://cupcakeroyale.com/thecupcakes.html A dollar or two donation would be awesome :P Bryan McLellan wrote: > On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 5:44 PM, Ahmed Osman wrote: > >> Really random, but does Anyone want a cupcake from cupcake royale? >> > > Yeah, bring all the cupcakes you can. There's no food commitment, so > we'll have to gather up some snacks. > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081107/9f05a096/attachment.html From paul-bartell at ubuntu.com Fri Nov 7 21:37:06 2008 From: paul-bartell at ubuntu.com (Paul Bartell) Date: Fri Nov 7 21:34:17 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Re: November 8th Meeting at Widemile In-Reply-To: <49150D0A.3080906@chipnick.com> References: <1805229248-1226108645-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-6296544-@bxe340.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <893823750811071948o83a9327w6393d343c5415e59@mail.gmail.com> <49150D0A.3080906@chipnick.com> Message-ID: <2b5bab0f0811072137m4fe9a824kdbdd374525a5f252@mail.gmail.com> Are people up for going for pizza or something after/before the meeting? (ive got to kill a bunch of time afterwards) On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 7:52 PM, Ahmed Osman wrote: > Sounds good. I'll bring 1.5 dozen tomorrow. Let me know what kind you want, > http://cupcakeroyale.com/thecupcakes.html > A dollar or two donation would be awesome :P > > > > > Bryan McLellan wrote: > > On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 5:44 PM, Ahmed Osman wrote: > > > Really random, but does Anyone want a cupcake from cupcake royale? > > > Yeah, bring all the cupcakes you can. There's no food commitment, so > we'll have to gather up some snacks. > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > -- Random quote of the week/month/whenever i get to updating it: "Opportunity knocked. My doorman threw him out." - Adrienne Gusoff "At school you don't get parole, good behavior only brings a longer sentence." - The History Boys From ryanc at greengrey.org Fri Nov 7 22:41:38 2008 From: ryanc at greengrey.org (Ryan Corder) Date: Fri Nov 7 22:45:07 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Re: November 8th Meeting at Widemile In-Reply-To: <2b5bab0f0811072137m4fe9a824kdbdd374525a5f252@mail.gmail.com> References: <1805229248-1226108645-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-6296544-@bxe340.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <893823750811071948o83a9327w6393d343c5415e59@mail.gmail.com> <49150D0A.3080906@chipnick.com> <2b5bab0f0811072137m4fe9a824kdbdd374525a5f252@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081108064138.GA31404@greengrey.org> On Fri, Nov 07, 2008 at 09:37:06PM -0800, Paul Bartell wrote: | Are people up for going for pizza or something after/before the | meeting? (ive got to kill a bunch of time afterwards) Just say something along the lines of, "Post-LUG meeting @ X pub!" I'm sure you'll have some interest :) From eric at extremeboredom.net Fri Nov 7 23:11:06 2008 From: eric at extremeboredom.net (Eric Butler) Date: Fri Nov 7 23:08:24 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Re: November 8th Meeting at Widemile In-Reply-To: <49150D0A.3080906@chipnick.com> References: <1805229248-1226108645-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-6296544-@bxe340.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <893823750811071948o83a9327w6393d343c5415e59@mail.gmail.com> <49150D0A.3080906@chipnick.com> Message-ID: <49153B8A.3010600@extremeboredom.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081107/b0525df8/attachment.htm From jarod at wilsonet.com Sat Nov 8 21:19:44 2008 From: jarod at wilsonet.com (Jarod Wilson) Date: Sat Nov 8 21:17:01 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Re: Linux Virtualization, was: ubuntu - FYI only - no flame war intended In-Reply-To: <893823750811071334p70704b3ar93225730300cc5b5@mail.gmail.com> References: <893823750811032234o72e17651mb1fdc9e8a764b58b@mail.gmail.com> <1225818599.3843.67.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <20081104172740.GC20047@seattlefenix.net> <1225829627.3843.100.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <893823750811071334p70704b3ar93225730300cc5b5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1226207984.3376.36.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> On Fri, 2008-11-07 at 13:34 -0800, Bryan McLellan wrote: > On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 12:13 PM, Jarod Wilson wrote: > > Bashing Canonical was not my intent, just trying to get some facts out > > there about what they've contributed to virtualization vs. Red Hat. > > I talked to Scott Dodson [at Redhat] about this a bit, because we > share an IRC channel, and he's smart and all that. He shared similar > sentiments: > > 17:55 < sdodson> Canonical is good at community shit, even for > projects they don't really do a whole lot with. > 17:56 < sdodson> My general impression is that RHT excels at low level > shit and the heavy lifting. Canonical puts a nice shine on it. > > I think that summarizes the discussion well. Agreed. > I recently found a > virt-manager bug that I believed was a regression. Virt-manager > assumes [xen/qemu]+ssh uri's should log in to the remote host as root. > After much digging found it was an Ubuntu packaging regression because > earlier deb's had patched this to not be the case. Now granted, I'm > fairly familiar with launchpad, but I couldn't find a bug tracker on > the Redhat ET site, and eventually filed the bug [1] in the general > bugzilla for redhat, which the majority of the virt-manager bugs there > had not been responded to and were marked as new still. In this > context, it doesn't mean that Redhat isn't working on the code, it's > just not interacting with the community as much. Filing a bug on > launchpad [2] got me a response from a developer in five hours. Unfortunately, part of why Red Hat isn't as good at community shit, is because developers are highly focused on code, not end-user support, and the end-user support people for the most part only interact with paying RHEL customers... > It's probably inevitable that Canonical will continue to get more > attention because of the size of their user base. FC appears to be an > attempt to regain the community after around Redhat 6, Yes and no. Fedora has a bit different target audience. Fedora is a much more developer-centric distro than Ubuntu. End-users that need a lot of hand-holding just aren't as big a focus as power users, particularly those who wind up joining the Fedora project in some capacity -- maintaining packages in the distro and whatnot. > and I commend > that, and I assume it helps; but I don't interact with that community > or see it. You probably do, and just don't realize it. :) Fedora and Red Hat's mantra is upstream, upstream, upstream. Red Hat employs a pretty hefty number of folks who are significant upstream contributors across everything from the kernel to the desktop. And all contributors are strongly encouraged to push any and all patches and what have you upstream as soon as possible for the benefit of all users. > As we've discussed in the parent thread, I'm not really interested in > who's done the most work. I think I cleared up that I speak from what > I see. If code or community or documentation is better is like arguing > over abortion or guns [in America]. I don't entirely agree. Community and documentation are certainly a huge help towards getting the code out to more people, but if there is no code in the first place, community and documentation are moot. > I did look at some old > kvm-userbase commits and see that your right about pre-quramnet redhat > commits, but I didn't find the time to go back to look at the > kvm-kernel git repo. > > A slashdot article about Redhat + AMD demostrating cross > cpu/architecture guest migration [3] came through my feed today, which > prompted the time to write this response and acknowledge Redhat for > it. > > I'm a KVM evangelist, so props to Redhat. Always happy to hear that. :) -- Jarod Wilson jarod@wilsonet.com From pencil_pusher at hotmail.com Sun Nov 9 00:58:59 2008 From: pencil_pusher at hotmail.com (David Hamilton) Date: Sun Nov 9 01:01:14 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Re: Linux Virtualization, was: ubuntu - FYI only - no flame war intended In-Reply-To: <1226207984.3376.36.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> References: <893823750811032234o72e17651mb1fdc9e8a764b58b@mail.gmail.com> <1225818599.3843.67.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <20081104172740.GC20047@seattlefenix.net> <1225829627.3843.100.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <893823750811071334p70704b3ar93225730300cc5b5@mail.gmail.com> <1226207984.3376.36.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> Message-ID: This whole penis envy thing with Canonical and Ubuntu is getting a bit old, imo. Especially when you work for Red Hat > Subject: Re: [Gslug-general] Re: Linux Virtualization, was: ubuntu - FYI only - no flame war intended> From: jarod@wilsonet.com> To: btm@loftninjas.org> Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 00:19:44 -0500> CC: gslug-general@gslug.org> > On Fri, 2008-11-07 at 13:34 -0800, Bryan McLellan wrote:> > On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 12:13 PM, Jarod Wilson wrote:> > > Bashing Canonical was not my intent, just trying to get some facts out> > > there about what they've contributed to virtualization vs. Red Hat.> > > > I talked to Scott Dodson [at Redhat] about this a bit, because we> > share an IRC channel, and he's smart and all that. He shared similar> > sentiments:> > > > 17:55 < sdodson> Canonical is good at community shit, even for> > projects they don't really do a whole lot with.> > 17:56 < sdodson> My general impression is that RHT excels at low level> > shit and the heavy lifting. Canonical puts a nice shine on it.> > > > I think that summarizes the discussion well.> > Agreed.> > > I recently found a> > virt-manager bug that I believed was a regression. Virt-manager> > assumes [xen/qemu]+ssh uri's should log in to the remote host as root.> > After much digging found it was an Ubuntu packaging regression because> > earlier deb's had patched this to not be the case. Now granted, I'm> > fairly familiar with launchpad, but I couldn't find a bug tracker on> > the Redhat ET site, and eventually filed the bug [1] in the general> > bugzilla for redhat, which the majority of the virt-manager bugs there> > had not been responded to and were marked as new still. In this> > context, it doesn't mean that Redhat isn't working on the code, it's> > just not interacting with the community as much. Filing a bug on> > launchpad [2] got me a response from a developer in five hours.> > Unfortunately, part of why Red Hat isn't as good at community shit, is> because developers are highly focused on code, not end-user support, and> the end-user support people for the most part only interact with paying> RHEL customers...> > > It's probably inevitable that Canonical will continue to get more> > attention because of the size of their user base. FC appears to be an> > attempt to regain the community after around Redhat 6,> > Yes and no. Fedora has a bit different target audience. Fedora is a much> more developer-centric distro than Ubuntu. End-users that need a lot of> hand-holding just aren't as big a focus as power users, particularly> those who wind up joining the Fedora project in some capacity --> maintaining packages in the distro and whatnot.> > > and I commend> > that, and I assume it helps; but I don't interact with that community> > or see it.> > You probably do, and just don't realize it. :) Fedora and Red Hat's> mantra is upstream, upstream, upstream. Red Hat employs a pretty hefty> number of folks who are significant upstream contributors across> everything from the kernel to the desktop. And all contributors are> strongly encouraged to push any and all patches and what have you> upstream as soon as possible for the benefit of all users.> > > As we've discussed in the parent thread, I'm not really interested in> > who's done the most work. I think I cleared up that I speak from what> > I see. If code or community or documentation is better is like arguing> > over abortion or guns [in America].> > I don't entirely agree. Community and documentation are certainly a huge> help towards getting the code out to more people, but if there is no> code in the first place, community and documentation are moot.> > > I did look at some old> > kvm-userbase commits and see that your right about pre-quramnet redhat> > commits, but I didn't find the time to go back to look at the> > kvm-kernel git repo.> > > > A slashdot article about Redhat + AMD demostrating cross> > cpu/architecture guest migration [3] came through my feed today, which> > prompted the time to write this response and acknowledge Redhat for> > it.> > > > I'm a KVM evangelist, so props to Redhat.> > Always happy to hear that. :)> > > > -- > Jarod Wilson> jarod@wilsonet.com> > _______________________________________________> Gslug-general mailing list> Gslug-general@gslug.org> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general _________________________________________________________________ Color coding for safety: Windows Live Hotmail alerts you to suspicious email. http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_safety_112008 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081109/72e56108/attachment.html From kormoc at gmail.com Sun Nov 9 02:17:34 2008 From: kormoc at gmail.com (Rob Smith) Date: Sun Nov 9 02:14:42 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Re: Linux Virtualization, was: ubuntu - FYI only - no flame war intended In-Reply-To: References: <893823750811032234o72e17651mb1fdc9e8a764b58b@mail.gmail.com> <1225818599.3843.67.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <20081104172740.GC20047@seattlefenix.net> <1225829627.3843.100.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <893823750811071334p70704b3ar93225730300cc5b5@mail.gmail.com> <1226207984.3376.36.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> Message-ID: <456dee40811090217g15701383ldd6e00299ec13da3@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 12:58 AM, David Hamilton wrote: > This whole penis envy thing with Canonical and Ubuntu is getting a bit old, > imo. Especially when you work for Red Hat Way to maturely take the thread to such worthwhile levels... From crash at neg9.org Mon Nov 10 11:16:57 2008 From: crash at neg9.org (Ian Gallagher) Date: Mon Nov 10 11:14:11 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Re: November 8th Meeting at Widemile In-Reply-To: <49153B8A.3010600@extremeboredom.net> References: <1805229248-1226108645-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-6296544-@bxe340.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <893823750811071948o83a9327w6393d343c5415e59@mail.gmail.com> <49150D0A.3080906@chipnick.com> <49153B8A.3010600@extremeboredom.net> Message-ID: <4b5c15340811101116i2362f312l34e8696cbbfa2296@mail.gmail.com> How did the meeting go? What do people think of the Widemile location? -Ian On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 23:11, Eric Butler wrote: > Cupcakes sound great! > > There won't be pizza tomorrow, so if anyone can bring snacks to share with > the group please do. We'll likely migrate to a nearby restaurant after the > meeting. > > See everyone tomorrow, > - Eric > > Ahmed Osman wrote: > > Sounds good. I'll bring 1.5 dozen tomorrow. Let me know what kind you want, > http://cupcakeroyale.com/thecupcakes.html > A dollar or two donation would be awesome :P > > > > > Bryan McLellan wrote: > > On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 5:44 PM, Ahmed Osman wrote: > > > Really random, but does Anyone want a cupcake from cupcake royale? > > > Yeah, bring all the cupcakes you can. There's no food commitment, so > we'll have to gather up some snacks. > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing listGslug-general@gslug.orghttp://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing listGslug-general@gslug.orghttp://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081110/a6acc171/attachment.htm From erratic at devel.ws Mon Nov 10 12:22:08 2008 From: erratic at devel.ws (Paige Adele Thompson) Date: Mon Nov 10 12:19:25 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Re: November 8th Meeting at Widemile In-Reply-To: <4b5c15340811101116i2362f312l34e8696cbbfa2296@mail.gmail.com> References: <1805229248-1226108645-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-6296544-@bxe340.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <893823750811071948o83a9327w6393d343c5415e59@mail.gmail.com> <49150D0A.3080906@chipnick.com> <49153B8A.3010600@extremeboredom.net> <4b5c15340811101116i2362f312l34e8696cbbfa2296@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <491897F0.2000301@devel.ws> Ian Gallagher wrote: > How did the meeting go? What do people think of the Widemile location? > > > -Ian > > On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 23:11, Eric Butler > wrote: > > Cupcakes sound great! > > There won't be pizza tomorrow, so if anyone can bring snacks to > share with the group please do. We'll likely migrate to a nearby > restaurant after the meeting. > > See everyone tomorrow, > - Eric > > Ahmed Osman wrote: >> Sounds good. I'll bring 1.5 dozen tomorrow. Let me know what kind >> you want, http://cupcakeroyale.com/thecupcakes.html >> A dollar or two donation would be awesome :P >> >> >> >> >> Bryan McLellan wrote: >>> On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 5:44 PM, Ahmed Osman wrote: >>> >>>> Really random, but does Anyone want a cupcake from cupcake royale? >>>> >>> Yeah, bring all the cupcakes you can. There's no food commitment, so >>> we'll have to gather up some snacks. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Gslug-general mailing list >>> Gslug-general@gslug.org >>> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general >>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> _______________________________________________ Gslug-general >> mailing list Gslug-general@gslug.org >> >> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general It was pretty sweet, but packed. More seats wouldn't have helped there wasn't enough room. From david.blomstrom at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 13:09:22 2008 From: david.blomstrom at gmail.com (David Blomstrom) Date: Mon Nov 10 13:06:32 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Re: November 8th Meeting at Widemile In-Reply-To: <4b5c15340811101116i2362f312l34e8696cbbfa2296@mail.gmail.com> References: <1805229248-1226108645-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-6296544-@bxe340.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <893823750811071948o83a9327w6393d343c5415e59@mail.gmail.com> <49150D0A.3080906@chipnick.com> <49153B8A.3010600@extremeboredom.net> <4b5c15340811101116i2362f312l34e8696cbbfa2296@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <188dd7de0811101309u30f3ca4bp66397bb96224249a@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 11:16 AM, Ian Gallagher wrote: > How did the meeting go? What do people think of the Widemile location? The meeting was awesome. I recently bought my first netbook and trying out Linux (Ubuntu). I was wrestling with some technical problems, trying to figure out how to connect Linux with the Internet, get my netbook to work with my Apple wireless keyboard, etc. I've posted questions on several online forums to no avail. At the LUG meeting a couple people helped me and fixed both problems amazingly fast. Last night, I was able to connect to the Internet from work (in South Seattle's industrial area) for the first time. I have one question for the group. I want to install Apache, PHP and MySQL. I was going to install XAMPP (which I long used on my PC), but someone advised me to install some sort of a "meta" installation instead. Do most of you agree, or is XAMPP-Linux good enough? If I should go with something other than XAMPP, what's it called, and where do I download it? I need something reasonably user friendly - a package that installs Apache, PHP, MySQL and PHPMyAdmin. I live in the U-District, so the Widemile location is convenient enough. The only problem is that you need a special card to use the elevators. I arrived late and had no way of using the elevators. I hung around, hoping someone else would arrive late and give me a lift. Sure enough, Jeremiah walked in. Otherwise, I would have missed the meeting entirely. Thanks. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081110/8b8e1b32/attachment.html From ashex at chipnick.com Mon Nov 10 13:33:46 2008 From: ashex at chipnick.com (Ahmed Osman) Date: Mon Nov 10 13:30:56 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Re: November 8th Meeting at Widemile In-Reply-To: <4b5c15340811101116i2362f312l34e8696cbbfa2296@mail.gmail.com> References: <1805229248-1226108645-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-6296544-@bxe340.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <893823750811071948o83a9327w6393d343c5415e59@mail.gmail.com> <49150D0A.3080906@chipnick.com> <49153B8A.3010600@extremeboredom.net> <4b5c15340811101116i2362f312l34e8696cbbfa2296@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4918A8BA.1090603@chipnick.com> The location itself was pretty convenient, parking not so much. I enjoyed the meeting quiet a bit with the talks, also got some input on getting Arch configured on my laptop. Considering the last meeting I was at was the first meeting last year (which I believe was the first in awhile for gslug) the group has grown a lot and I'm going to try and keep coming (assuming my club decides to not have all their events on the second weekend of each month also). Only gripe I have was the size of the meeting room, which really couldn't be helped. -Ahmed Ian Gallagher wrote: > How did the meeting go? What do people think of the Widemile location? > > > -Ian > > On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 23:11, Eric Butler > wrote: > > Cupcakes sound great! > > There won't be pizza tomorrow, so if anyone can bring snacks to > share with the group please do. We'll likely migrate to a nearby > restaurant after the meeting. > > See everyone tomorrow, > - Eric > > Ahmed Osman wrote: >> Sounds good. I'll bring 1.5 dozen tomorrow. Let me know what kind >> you want, http://cupcakeroyale.com/thecupcakes.html >> A dollar or two donation would be awesome :P >> >> >> >> >> Bryan McLellan wrote: >>> On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 5:44 PM, Ahmed Osman wrote: >>> >>>> Really random, but does Anyone want a cupcake from cupcake royale? >>>> >>> Yeah, bring all the cupcakes you can. There's no food commitment, so >>> we'll have to gather up some snacks. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Gslug-general mailing list >>> Gslug-general@gslug.org >>> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general >>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> _______________________________________________ Gslug-general >> mailing list Gslug-general@gslug.org >> >> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081110/071c9d3d/attachment.htm From gray.andrew at comcast.net Mon Nov 10 13:38:22 2008 From: gray.andrew at comcast.net (Andrew Gray) Date: Mon Nov 10 13:35:06 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Re: November 8th Meeting at Widemile In-Reply-To: <4b5c15340811101116i2362f312l34e8696cbbfa2296@mail.gmail.com> References: <1805229248-1226108645-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-6296544-@bxe340.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <893823750811071948o83a9327w6393d343c5415e59@mail.gmail.com> <49150D0A.3080906@chipnick.com> <49153B8A.3010600@extremeboredom.net> <4b5c15340811101116i2362f312l34e8696cbbfa2296@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1226353102.25582.5.camel@gina> I think the meeting went well. The location was nice, in my opinion, and had a great view. Seating was limited, but then again, it was also limited at Speakeasy, but we managed all right. I had a window sill seat, which was actually pretty comfortable. However, the limited seating isn't exactly a bad sign; it's great to see so many people interested in the GSLUG. One note about the meeting was that after the lightning talks, particularly toward the end, the questions got rather off-topic and bled into the free forum time, with only a couple of people going off on tangents that didn't apply to most people in the room. People can reply to this message and say that they were genuinely interested in those discussions, but what I'm saying is that they didn't have to do with the lightning talk itself. I would have much preferred to be able to go around to the individual lightning talkers and ask questions of them and learn more about what they were saying rather than wait a rather lengthy amount of time for others to finish their flame wars. I've been rather frank in this email, and gslugger friends, please don't take offense by this. I'm speaking from what I experienced in my honest opinion. You're free to disagree. On Mon, 2008-11-10 at 11:16 -0800, Ian Gallagher wrote: > How did the meeting go? What do people think of the Widemile location? > > > -Ian > > On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 23:11, Eric Butler > wrote: > Cupcakes sound great! > > There won't be pizza tomorrow, so if anyone can bring snacks > to share with the group please do. We'll likely migrate to a > nearby restaurant after the meeting. > > See everyone tomorrow, > - Eric > > Ahmed Osman wrote: > > > > Sounds good. I'll bring 1.5 dozen tomorrow. Let me know what > > kind you want, http://cupcakeroyale.com/thecupcakes.html > > A dollar or two donation would be awesome :P > > > > > > > > > > Bryan McLellan wrote: > > > On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 5:44 PM, Ahmed Osman wrote: > > > > > > > Really random, but does Anyone want a cupcake from cupcake royale? > > > > > > > Yeah, bring all the cupcakes you can. There's no food commitment, so > > > we'll have to gather up some snacks. > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Gslug-general mailing list > > > Gslug-general@gslug.org > > > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > Gslug-general mailing list Gslug-general@gslug.org > > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general From jtg at intarcorp.com Mon Nov 10 14:21:12 2008 From: jtg at intarcorp.com (Jeremiah T. Gray) Date: Mon Nov 10 14:18:45 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Re: November 8th Meeting at Widemile In-Reply-To: <1226353102.25582.5.camel@gina> References: <1805229248-1226108645-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-6296544-@bxe340.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <893823750811071948o83a9327w6393d343c5415e59@mail.gmail.com> <49150D0A.3080906@chipnick.com> <49153B8A.3010600@extremeboredom.net> <4b5c15340811101116i2362f312l34e8696cbbfa2296@mail.gmail.com> <1226353102.25582.5.camel@gina> Message-ID: <4A4EE56A-8047-42AD-84E9-618DA6E07AA3@intarcorp.com> I concur with Andrew in this, but I blame it on the room; the conference room format combined with such high turnout made it impractical to move around and talk with other folks. The old CC classroom was perfect for smaller group subsets, but this last venue just wouldn't work for that unless no more than a dozen people showed imho. Of course, I'm grateful to anyone who will offer shelter to a bunch of Linux geeks, so what're you gonna do? On a mostly unrelated note, would anyone like to get together separately to discuss tactics for expanding Linux-based curriculums into various educational settings? We've discussed it some on the list, but the threads tend to become hypothetical musings. I'd like to talk very specifically and comprehensively about where courses of all levels are being offered, what the curriculums and fee structures are, and whether we can help reinforce existing efforts or start entirely new ones. This is an area of personal interest and focus for me, and I'm not trying to co-opt GSLUG or form another organization; I just want to connect people who may be working on this sort of stuff on their own in order to coordinate a better strategy for making a better educational pipeline. Some topics/goals might include: * How to best establish relationships with decision-makers at schools who can introduce Linux-based operating systems * Determining how to get Linux training programs to youth and/or vocational centers * Creating a comprehensive list of places currently offering Linux- based educational programs and what they teach * Communicating with businesses that use Linux to determine what their needs and expectations are from applicants I'd also be interested in working with small businesses and their trade groups to get Linux-based systems into places where it would be a practical alternative, but that seems like something for Phase 2. Jeremiah On Nov 10, 2008, at 1:38 PM, Andrew Gray wrote: > I think the meeting went well. The location was nice, in my > opinion, and > had a great view. Seating was limited, but then again, it was also > limited at Speakeasy, but we managed all right. I had a window sill > seat, which was actually pretty comfortable. However, the limited > seating isn't exactly a bad sign; it's great to see so many people > interested in the GSLUG. > > One note about the meeting was that after the lightning talks, > particularly toward the end, the questions got rather off-topic and > bled > into the free forum time, with only a couple of people going off on > tangents that didn't apply to most people in the room. People can > reply > to this message and say that they were genuinely interested in those > discussions, but what I'm saying is that they didn't have to do > with the > lightning talk itself. I would have much preferred to be able to go > around to the individual lightning talkers and ask questions of > them and > learn more about what they were saying rather than wait a rather > lengthy > amount of time for others to finish their flame wars. > > I've been rather frank in this email, and gslugger friends, please > don't > take offense by this. I'm speaking from what I experienced in my > honest > opinion. You're free to disagree. > > On Mon, 2008-11-10 at 11:16 -0800, Ian Gallagher wrote: >> How did the meeting go? What do people think of the Widemile >> location? >> >> >> -Ian >> >> On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 23:11, Eric Butler >> wrote: >> Cupcakes sound great! >> >> There won't be pizza tomorrow, so if anyone can bring snacks >> to share with the group please do. We'll likely migrate to a >> nearby restaurant after the meeting. >> >> See everyone tomorrow, >> - Eric >> >> Ahmed Osman wrote: >>> >>> Sounds good. I'll bring 1.5 dozen tomorrow. Let me know what >>> kind you want, http://cupcakeroyale.com/thecupcakes.html >>> A dollar or two donation would be awesome :P >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Bryan McLellan wrote: >>>> On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 5:44 PM, Ahmed Osman >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Really random, but does Anyone want a cupcake from cupcake royale? >>>>> >>>> Yeah, bring all the cupcakes you can. There's no food >>>> commitment, so >>>> we'll have to gather up some snacks. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Gslug-general mailing list >>>> Gslug-general@gslug.org >>>> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ____________________________________________________________ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Gslug-general mailing list Gslug-general@gslug.org >>> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Gslug-general mailing list >> Gslug-general@gslug.org >> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Gslug-general mailing list >> Gslug-general@gslug.org >> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general From david.blomstrom at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 15:13:29 2008 From: david.blomstrom at gmail.com (David Blomstrom) Date: Mon Nov 10 15:10:39 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Re: November 8th Meeting at Widemile In-Reply-To: <4A4EE56A-8047-42AD-84E9-618DA6E07AA3@intarcorp.com> References: <1805229248-1226108645-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-6296544-@bxe340.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <893823750811071948o83a9327w6393d343c5415e59@mail.gmail.com> <49150D0A.3080906@chipnick.com> <49153B8A.3010600@extremeboredom.net> <4b5c15340811101116i2362f312l34e8696cbbfa2296@mail.gmail.com> <1226353102.25582.5.camel@gina> <4A4EE56A-8047-42AD-84E9-618DA6E07AA3@intarcorp.com> Message-ID: <188dd7de0811101513j361f34b0y7b490a0becf3d907@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 2:21 PM, Jeremiah T. Gray wrote: On a mostly unrelated note, would anyone like to get together separately to discuss tactics for expanding Linux-based curriculums into various educational settings? . . . Some topics/goals might include: * How to best establish relationships with decision-makers at schools who can introduce Linux-based operating systems * Determining how to get Linux training programs to youth and/or vocational centers I'd also be interested in working with small businesses and their trade groups to get Linux-based systems into places where it would be a practical alternative, but that seems like something for Phase 2. Jeremiah * * * * * I worked for the Seattle School District for sixteen years until I was laid off after the school board "lost" over $30 million. I knew it was just a matter of time before they got rid of me, as I began speaking out against the corporatization/privatization of public education in the mid-1990's. It would not be an exaggeration to say that Bill Gates runs the Seattle School District. Of course, Bill Gates Jr. and Sr. also have a lot of clout at the University of Washington. Virtually any "decision-makers" you meet with at Seattle Schools or the UW is going to be corrupt. Which doesn't mean they won't talk to you. They may even pretend to embrace Linux - likely as part of a strategy to keep it on a leash. I first ran for public office in 1999. I suffered a rather remarkable "attack" by William Gates during my campaign. I responded by adding Microsoft to my hit list. See my Google "Knol" Bill Gates at http://knol.google.com/k/david-blomstrom/bill-gates/1i6e04re3w2kp/4# I'm not trying to discourage you, and I may be telling you things you're already aware of. I'd just be rather amazed if you made any progress with local education institutions. I suspect small businesses would be more fertile ground, as their bottom line is profit. With the economy going down the toilet, they may be more inclined to embrace Linux. But I predict Microsoft will only tighten its grip on education; screwing kids is what they do best. On a positive note, I'm struck by the number of Apple laptops I see in the University District, Bill Gates' back yard. Not that Apple is without fault, but it isn't nearly as bad as Microsoft. It's just encouraging to see a little competition on Bill Gates' turf. I think the netbook revolution will go a long ways in popularizing Linux, though Microsoft has done a pretty good job of dominating this industry, too. I just read that ASUS is going to scrap Linux, installing Windows on all its netbooks. I'm not certain if that applies to all its netbooks or only those sold in certain countries, but it sounds like M$ is gaining ground in the netbook arena. In fact, I planned on purchasing a netbook running Linux but opted for Windows so I could get a bigger hard drive. I then installed Ubuntu, which is now my default OS. It is nice having Windows, partly so I can preview my websites in Internet Explorer. Anyway, it's hard to imagine anything more corrupt and dysfunctional than the Seattle School District, a subsidiary of Microsoft. It will be interesting to see if the Linux community can make any headway in education in the U.S. I'm looking elsewhere for inspiration, particularly Latin America. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081110/bfe1a1c9/attachment.html From pencil_pusher at hotmail.com Mon Nov 10 19:22:13 2008 From: pencil_pusher at hotmail.com (David Hamilton) Date: Mon Nov 10 19:19:19 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Re: November 8th Meeting at Widemile In-Reply-To: <4A4EE56A-8047-42AD-84E9-618DA6E07AA3@intarcorp.com> References: <1805229248-1226108645-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-6296544-@bxe340.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <893823750811071948o83a9327w6393d343c5415e59@mail.gmail.com> <49150D0A.3080906@chipnick.com> <49153B8A.3010600@extremeboredom.net> <4b5c15340811101116i2362f312l34e8696cbbfa2296@mail.gmail.com> <1226353102.25582.5.camel@gina> <4A4EE56A-8047-42AD-84E9-618DA6E07AA3@intarcorp.com> Message-ID: I'd be up for helping out, whether that be free linux classes at the library or places like el centro de la raza, or offering free linux installs to those inundated with viruses and old machines. Pimping netbooks would be pretty sweet too, but not for a profit. I like the 'free' part because others do too and a few cds with OpenOffice and other freeware goodies for Windows is a good start towards the dark side and cost relatively nothing. Or the freeware could be a barrier to linux migration...? Either way, I work in downtown Seattle if you want to get together sometime. Also... Jarod, sorry for that last message of mine. I inadvertantly erased a smiley at the end before sending it and the tone came across not like I intended.> From: jtg@intarcorp.com> Subject: Re: [Gslug-general] Re: November 8th Meeting at Widemile> Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:21:12 -0800> To: gslug-general@gslug.org> > I concur with Andrew in this, but I blame it on the room; the > conference room format combined with such high turnout made it > impractical to move around and talk with other folks. The old CC > classroom was perfect for smaller group subsets, but this last venue > just wouldn't work for that unless no more than a dozen people showed > imho. Of course, I'm grateful to anyone who will offer shelter to a > bunch of Linux geeks, so what're you gonna do?> > On a mostly unrelated note, would anyone like to get together > separately to discuss tactics for expanding Linux-based curriculums > into various educational settings? We've discussed it some on the > list, but the threads tend to become hypothetical musings. I'd like > to talk very specifically and comprehensively about where courses of > all levels are being offered, what the curriculums and fee structures > are, and whether we can help reinforce existing efforts or start > entirely new ones.> > This is an area of personal interest and focus for me, and I'm not > trying to co-opt GSLUG or form another organization; I just want to > connect people who may be working on this sort of stuff on their own > in order to coordinate a better strategy for making a better > educational pipeline.> > Some topics/goals might include:> * How to best establish relationships with decision-makers at > schools who can introduce Linux-based operating systems> * Determining how to get Linux training programs to youth and/or > vocational centers> * Creating a comprehensive list of places currently offering Linux- > based educational programs and what they teach> * Communicating with businesses that use Linux to determine what > their needs and expectations are from applicants> > I'd also be interested in working with small businesses and their > trade groups to get Linux-based systems into places where it would be > a practical alternative, but that seems like something for Phase 2.> > Jeremiah> > > > > On Nov 10, 2008, at 1:38 PM, Andrew Gray wrote:> > > I think the meeting went well. The location was nice, in my > > opinion, and> > had a great view. Seating was limited, but then again, it was also> > limited at Speakeasy, but we managed all right. I had a window sill> > seat, which was actually pretty comfortable. However, the limited> > seating isn't exactly a bad sign; it's great to see so many people> > interested in the GSLUG.> >> > One note about the meeting was that after the lightning talks,> > particularly toward the end, the questions got rather off-topic and > > bled> > into the free forum time, with only a couple of people going off on> > tangents that didn't apply to most people in the room. People can > > reply> > to this message and say that they were genuinely interested in those> > discussions, but what I'm saying is that they didn't have to do > > with the> > lightning talk itself. I would have much preferred to be able to go> > around to the individual lightning talkers and ask questions of > > them and> > learn more about what they were saying rather than wait a rather > > lengthy> > amount of time for others to finish their flame wars.> >> > I've been rather frank in this email, and gslugger friends, please > > don't> > take offense by this. I'm speaking from what I experienced in my > > honest> > opinion. You're free to disagree.> >> > On Mon, 2008-11-10 at 11:16 -0800, Ian Gallagher wrote:> >> How did the meeting go? What do people think of the Widemile > >> location?> >>> >>> >> -Ian> >>> >> On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 23:11, Eric Butler > >> wrote:> >> Cupcakes sound great!> >>> >> There won't be pizza tomorrow, so if anyone can bring snacks> >> to share with the group please do. We'll likely migrate to a> >> nearby restaurant after the meeting.> >>> >> See everyone tomorrow,> >> - Eric> >>> >> Ahmed Osman wrote:> >>>> >>> Sounds good. I'll bring 1.5 dozen tomorrow. Let me know what> >>> kind you want, http://cupcakeroyale.com/thecupcakes.html> >>> A dollar or two donation would be awesome :P> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Bryan McLellan wrote:> >>>> On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 5:44 PM, Ahmed Osman > >>>> wrote:> >>>>> >>>>> Really random, but does Anyone want a cupcake from cupcake royale?> >>>>>> >>>> Yeah, bring all the cupcakes you can. There's no food > >>>> commitment, so> >>>> we'll have to gather up some snacks.> >>>> _______________________________________________> >>>> Gslug-general mailing list> >>>> Gslug-general@gslug.org> >>>> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> ____________________________________________________________> >>> _______________________________________________> >>> Gslug-general mailing list Gslug-general@gslug.org> >>> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general> >>> >> _______________________________________________> >> Gslug-general mailing list> >> Gslug-general@gslug.org> >> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general> >>> >> _______________________________________________> >> Gslug-general mailing list> >> Gslug-general@gslug.org> >> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general> >> > _______________________________________________> > Gslug-general mailing list> > Gslug-general@gslug.org> > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general> > _______________________________________________> Gslug-general mailing list> Gslug-general@gslug.org> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general _________________________________________________________________ See how Windows? connects the people, information, and fun that are part of your life http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119463819/direct/01/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081110/bb9731df/attachment.htm From steven_coles at yahoo.com Mon Nov 10 20:02:16 2008 From: steven_coles at yahoo.com (Michael_Faraday) Date: Mon Nov 10 19:59:24 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Re: November 8th Meeting at Widemile In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <761442.89174.qm@web36408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081110/39a0d18e/attachment.html From steven_coles at yahoo.com Mon Nov 10 20:47:35 2008 From: steven_coles at yahoo.com (Michael_Faraday) Date: Mon Nov 10 20:44:42 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Arduino Open-Source Embedded Controller In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <572696.89740.qm@web36402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Linux Teachers, Starting winter quarter Edmonds Community College will teach embedded systems using the Arduino Open-Source Embedded Controller (a.k.a. MCU?microcontroller unit). Please see http://www.arduino.cc/ Of course the Linux community offers open-source IDEs (integrated development environments) for nearly every MCU in common use. This allows us to develop many real-time projects we dreamed of when microprocessors became available in the 1970s, but weren't practical with the pre-Linux tools. I'm hoping to be using some of those tools myself in the near future. Happy computing, Steven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081110/856c0a01/attachment.htm From gray.andrew at comcast.net Tue Nov 11 11:32:04 2008 From: gray.andrew at comcast.net (Andrew Gray) Date: Tue Nov 11 11:28:46 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Job opportunities for younger geeks Message-ID: <1226431924.25582.11.camel@gina> Hello fellow gsluggers, My name's Andrew Gray, and I'm eighteen and still in high school. I was curious as to whether any of you know of any small job opportunities for younger, less experienced linux (or simply computer) geeks that involved technology. Things might range from mundane tech tasks to building towers from scratch. Do any of you know of groups that can offer those kind of conditions? Also, a friend of mine a long time ago got some sort of technological certification, allowing him to work on things like this. That was in Missouri though; do any of you know about something of this nature? Thanks for any wisdom you may pass forth, --Andrew From btm at loftninjas.org Tue Nov 11 11:38:46 2008 From: btm at loftninjas.org (Bryan McLellan) Date: Tue Nov 11 11:35:53 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Job opportunities for younger geeks In-Reply-To: <1226431924.25582.11.camel@gina> References: <1226431924.25582.11.camel@gina> Message-ID: <893823750811111138s4c4fbb51gcfb073e5dd7cdcb6@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 11:32 AM, Andrew Gray wrote: > Also, a friend of mine a long time ago got some sort of technological > certification, allowing him to work on things like this. That was in > Missouri though; do any of you know about something of this nature? The CompTIA Certifications are generally regarded as the super-entry level certifications. Back when I was in high school and worked in computer repair we all thought they were silly because the one guy that had a CompTIA A+ [1] had a bizarrely spotty level of experience. I taught CompTIA certification courses for a while a couple years ago. I don't know.. I wouldn't say they're needed or even a great idea, but certifications can help get your foot in the door somewhere, that is, through the HR department, as well as you may turn up more in resume keyword searches online. But if you're not doing anything else, I think they're a good idea because at the very least they're indicative of what specific areas in a broad field you're not experienced in. Take one of the Microsofts tests too, most single tests will earn you either an MCP [2] (older framework) or an MCTS [3] (newer framework). Bryan [1] http://certification.comptia.org/a/default.aspx [2] http://www.microsoft.com/learning/mcp/mcp/default.mspx [3] http://www.microsoft.com/learning/mcp/mcts/default.mspx From steven_coles at yahoo.com Tue Nov 11 12:21:39 2008 From: steven_coles at yahoo.com (Michael_Faraday) Date: Tue Nov 11 12:18:44 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Job opportunities for younger geeks In-Reply-To: <1226431924.25582.11.camel@gina> Message-ID: <263340.86354.qm@web36404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Andrew, Yes. All together various organizations offer certification exams by the hundreds. Most distros have an entry exam something like the Install and configure Ubuntu systems certification mentioned at http://www.ubuntu.com/training/certificationcourses For electronics hardware see the apprentice and associate level exams at http://www.iscet.org/certification/index.html and http://www.eta-i.org/CertsGroups.html For computer hardware CompTIA has a reputation as a good starting place. http://certification.comptia.org/allcerts.aspx Because of the low monetary outlay, workers with their sights on RF and microwave sometimes take the Federal Communication Commission's GROL plus radar endorsement. (The radar endorsement helps a bit with microwave terminology for 2.4 GHz, 5.6 GHz, and upward.) http://wireless.fcc.gov/commoperators/pg.html http://wireless.fcc.gov/commfoperators/sre.html Please understand many of these entry-level certifications, licenses, and endorsements demonstrate your willingness and ability to outgrow popular and home terminology and understand methodologies at a next-step level. In Pacific Northwest businesses the entry-level certifications alone seldom get anyone employed. But certifications help you get a job when you have some, but not much experience. In community and technical colleges certifications can get you past deadly dull introductory classes and into higher-level classes. Look for classes marked, "Prerequisite: CS-101 or instructor's permission." One or two appropriate certifications plus 20 or 30 weeks experience (including a church administrator's or mentor's signature on a short letter explaining you installed and optimized the church's network) can get the instructor's permission. Even positioning wireless microphone receivers for minimum dead spots transfers a bit of knowledge to computer networking. Good luck, Steven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081111/51cfd785/attachment.html From btm at loftninjas.org Tue Nov 11 12:38:02 2008 From: btm at loftninjas.org (Bryan McLellan) Date: Tue Nov 11 12:35:07 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Job opportunities for younger geeks In-Reply-To: References: <1226431924.25582.11.camel@gina> <893823750811111138s4c4fbb51gcfb073e5dd7cdcb6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <893823750811111238t311d50d8sd8d3bcc0b9ea8f38@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 12:08 PM, Chuck Wolber wrote: > This is good advice, but I think the best advice anyone ever gave me was: > "STAY IN SCHOOL"! Hopefully you aren't considering the easy money and are > using IT to help pay the tuition bills. In the IT world, you'll make a lot > more, and get a lot more interesting opportunities, if you have that > degree. Oh oh. Someone brought this up. Dropping out is more work that staying in school if you want to be "accomplished". I wouldn't eagerly tell people to drop out, but I have a problem with the relentless "stay in school" mantra. The worst advice anyone ever gave me was to stay in school, and more importantly the implication that I would be a drug dealing loser if I dropped out, never going anywhere with my life. School, and certainly public school, isn't for everyone. I think I dropped out of every public school I ever went to (including elementary school) and many years later had more than one school counselor relate that my situation was the turning point that convinced them that the problem in my case was the system. There's some interesting material out there about public education being designed to turn out factory workers rather than creative types. People smarter than me write it, go read their discourse. While I'm periodically disappointed about not achieving a college degree, I've tried multiple times. College isn't for me for the same reasons other public schools were not. I learn more in a few nights of self-engaged learning than I can in a class in a whole semester. Granted, I don't eat or sleep in the interim. I have a strong desire to learn and that suits me better than any formal training ever has. IT is not easy money, the bubble is over, recession, blah blah blah. Go learn and don't stop. You'll find interesting opportunities. Bryan From btm at loftninjas.org Tue Nov 11 12:42:00 2008 From: btm at loftninjas.org (Bryan McLellan) Date: Tue Nov 11 12:39:09 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Job opportunities for younger geeks In-Reply-To: <263340.86354.qm@web36404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1226431924.25582.11.camel@gina> <263340.86354.qm@web36404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <893823750811111242n4d31027fw89962ddea48b0d92@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 12:21 PM, Michael_Faraday wrote: > Yes. All together various organizations offer certification exams by the > hundreds. Most distros have an entry exam something like the Install and > configure Ubuntu systems certification mentioned at > > http://www.ubuntu.com/training/certificationcourses The Ubuntu certification requires the LPIC-1. For the record, LPIC stuff relies on somewhat obscure (but in the man page!) questions about flags and switches. Generally it requires more that you have a great memory, or use a lot of low level gnu tools on a regular basis such that deep in your mind lies what flag tells mke2fs to make an ext3 partition. I haven't taken the Ubuntu (199) test so I can't really comment on it. Bryan From chuckw at quantumlinux.com Tue Nov 11 12:08:20 2008 From: chuckw at quantumlinux.com (Chuck Wolber) Date: Tue Nov 11 12:44:30 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Job opportunities for younger geeks In-Reply-To: <893823750811111138s4c4fbb51gcfb073e5dd7cdcb6@mail.gmail.com> References: <1226431924.25582.11.camel@gina> <893823750811111138s4c4fbb51gcfb073e5dd7cdcb6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Nov 2008, Bryan McLellan wrote: > On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 11:32 AM, Andrew Gray wrote: > > Also, a friend of mine a long time ago got some sort of technological > > certification, allowing him to work on things like this. That was in > > Missouri though; do any of you know about something of this nature? > > Take one of the Microsofts tests too, most single tests will earn you > either an MCP [2] (older framework) or an MCTS [3] (newer framework). This is good advice, but I think the best advice anyone ever gave me was: "STAY IN SCHOOL"! Hopefully you aren't considering the easy money and are using IT to help pay the tuition bills. In the IT world, you'll make a lot more, and get a lot more interesting opportunities, if you have that degree. ..Chuck.. -- http://www.quantumlinux.com | "An idea does not gain Quantum Linux Laboratories, LLC. | truth as it gains ACCELERATING Business with Open Technology | followers." Amanda Bloom From technoshaman at liawol.org Tue Nov 11 12:59:51 2008 From: technoshaman at liawol.org (Glenn Stone) Date: Tue Nov 11 12:56:58 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Job opportunities for younger geeks In-Reply-To: <893823750811111238t311d50d8sd8d3bcc0b9ea8f38@mail.gmail.com> References: <1226431924.25582.11.camel@gina> <893823750811111138s4c4fbb51gcfb073e5dd7cdcb6@mail.gmail.com> <893823750811111238t311d50d8sd8d3bcc0b9ea8f38@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081111205951.GG28424@liawol.org> On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 12:38:02PM -0800, Bryan McLellan wrote: >While I'm periodically disappointed about not achieving a college >degree, I've tried multiple times. College isn't for me for the same >reasons other public schools were not. I learn more in a few nights of >self-engaged learning than I can in a class in a whole semester. >Granted, I don't eat or sleep in the interim. I have a strong desire >to learn and that suits me better than any formal training ever has. > >IT is not easy money, the bubble is over, recession, blah blah blah. >Go learn and don't stop. You'll find interesting opportunities. I'm glad I went to college, but not so much for the classwork as the people I met and the work experience I gained while in school. I was a User Assistant for the Georgia Tech Office of Computing Services... and I learned most of what I needed to know about being a sysadmin in that job. Many of my friends were either UA's, operators, or co-op students (go to school one quarter, work one quarter as an intern); most of them have "Sr." or equivalent next to their job titles now. (One has CAPT. :) In this economy I would stay in school... but finding the *right* school and the right work to do during school (and I firmly believe that if you don't have anything on your resume but "BS" when you get your paper, you will NOT find a job in your degree field - not today) is key. Maybe multiple schools. It sounds like you're too late to explore AP options in high school, but if anyone else is reading this who's younger, tear into the AP courses with a vengeance. Particularly the soft stuff. The more history and English you can AP out of in grade school the more time and money you'll have to spend on your field. That said, once in college, always take one course per quarter that's a sanity class. English, history, philsophy, psych, basketweaving, whatever. It will help your GPA and it will help keep you from going stark raving bonkers. And unless you're one of these serious type-A devs that loves pressure, only take one "big" course a quarter. Your sanity will thank you, and so will I, since I won't be taking a hit in the wallet for my share of your publicly funded asylum bill. :) Obviously, find yourself a school that believes in Open Source. Georgia Tech. Oregon State. Cal Berkeley. MIT, if they can afford you (you can't afford them!). (Look at the mirrors lists around for more possibilities.) ObLinux: I note that *nowhere* in Washington state is there a major Linux mirror. Folks, that needs fixin'. And in a way that BillG and SteveB can scream all they want, to no avail. Hardware I don't think is the problem; after all, this is just shoving bits... I think the issue is cheap bandwidth. You'd need at least a frac-T3 for this. Anybody know a provider willing to donate, or that could be convinced? But back to topic: Definitely stay in school and ride this bump out.... and get all the practical experience you can while you're at it. Good luck! Glenn gatech ICS '90 From jarod at wilsonet.com Tue Nov 11 13:23:32 2008 From: jarod at wilsonet.com (Jarod Wilson) Date: Tue Nov 11 13:20:42 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Job opportunities for younger geeks In-Reply-To: <20081111205951.GG28424@liawol.org> References: <1226431924.25582.11.camel@gina> <893823750811111138s4c4fbb51gcfb073e5dd7cdcb6@mail.gmail.com> <893823750811111238t311d50d8sd8d3bcc0b9ea8f38@mail.gmail.com> <20081111205951.GG28424@liawol.org> Message-ID: <1226438612.14480.8.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> On Tue, 2008-11-11 at 12:59 -0800, Glenn Stone wrote: > ObLinux: I note that *nowhere* in Washington state is there a major > Linux mirror. Folks, that needs fixin'. And in a way that BillG and > SteveB can scream all they want, to no avail. Hardware I don't think > is the problem; after all, this is just shoving bits... I think the > issue is cheap bandwidth. You'd need at least a frac-T3 for this. > Anybody know a provider willing to donate, or that could be > convinced? Rumor has it the University of Puget Sound should have a mirror sitting on a fairly beefy pipe coming live Real Soon Now, but yeah, the lack of mirrors in Washington is kinda sad. :( Maybe everyone's just leaching off Oregon. (i.e. OSU and Portland State) -- Jarod Wilson jarod@wilsonet.com From chuckw at quantumlinux.com Tue Nov 11 13:23:11 2008 From: chuckw at quantumlinux.com (Chuck Wolber) Date: Tue Nov 11 13:21:04 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Job opportunities for younger geeks In-Reply-To: <893823750811111238t311d50d8sd8d3bcc0b9ea8f38@mail.gmail.com> References: <1226431924.25582.11.camel@gina> <893823750811111138s4c4fbb51gcfb073e5dd7cdcb6@mail.gmail.com> <893823750811111238t311d50d8sd8d3bcc0b9ea8f38@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Nov 2008, Bryan McLellan wrote: [...] > I wouldn't eagerly tell people to drop out, but I have a problem with > the relentless "stay in school" mantra. The worst advice anyone ever > gave me was to stay in school, and more importantly the implication that > I would be a drug dealing loser if I dropped out, never going anywhere > with my life. I wouldn't read that much into it. Earning an honest buck is an honorable thing no matter how you slice it. I think the concern is more geared towards making sure you don't "feel" like a loser 20 years later when it's too late to make substantive changes in your future. Also go read Freakanomics; drug dealers generally live with their parents for a reason. Selling drugs is *NOT* a lucrative occupation. It's a lot like Amway, only the people at the top make the real money, but it sure looks good to gullible people at the bottom who are struggling from paycheck to paycheck. > School, and certainly public school, isn't for everyone. I think I > dropped out of every public school I ever went to (including elementary > school) and many years later had more than one school counselor relate > that my situation was the turning point that convinced them that the > problem in my case was the system. Education is an art, not a science. Hopefully we get to meet someday and, if you are so inclined, you could share your story with me. If I may be so bold as to to take a guess, I'd say you are an extremely intelligent person who sits out on the fringes somewhere. You are probably a very interesting person. > There's some interesting material out there about public education being > designed to turn out factory workers rather than creative types. People > smarter than me write it, go read their discourse. I've read it and I was honestly not impressed. If you want to view the world as a conspiracy to create more drones, be my guest. Yes, classrooms are set up like the ideal factory, but I think that's more from a lack of creativity than any conspiracy. I have heard the same said of most state governments. Hardly any creativity went into creating them, they're all just more or less clones of the Federal Government. > While I'm periodically disappointed about not achieving a college > degree, I've tried multiple times. College isn't for me for the same > reasons other public schools were not. I learn more in a few nights of > self-engaged learning than I can in a class in a whole semester. > Granted, I don't eat or sleep in the interim. I have a strong desire to > learn and that suits me better than any formal training ever has. Sounds familiar. I managed to make it through college, with a much better GPA than the current president, but I know I could have done a lot better. I tended to get very distracted on stuff that interested me, to the exclusion of the stuff that would have gotten me good grades. I am in the process of going back for a graduate degree, and I think I'll do much better this time around. > IT is not easy money, the bubble is over, recession, blah blah blah. Go > learn and don't stop. You'll find interesting opportunities. Couldn't have said it better. For an 18 year old kid though, it can *LOOK* glamorous. That's my fear. Same thing happened in the 70's in Detroit. A lot of kids took the easy money in the factory building cars. Now none of them have much of a future to look forward to. ..Chuck.. -- http://www.quantumlinux.com | "An idea does not gain Quantum Linux Laboratories, LLC. | truth as it gains ACCELERATING Business with Open Technology | followers." Amanda Bloom From technoshaman at liawol.org Tue Nov 11 13:25:04 2008 From: technoshaman at liawol.org (Glenn Stone) Date: Tue Nov 11 13:22:10 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Job opportunities for younger geeks In-Reply-To: <1226438612.14480.8.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> References: <1226431924.25582.11.camel@gina> <893823750811111138s4c4fbb51gcfb073e5dd7cdcb6@mail.gmail.com> <893823750811111238t311d50d8sd8d3bcc0b9ea8f38@mail.gmail.com> <20081111205951.GG28424@liawol.org> <1226438612.14480.8.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> Message-ID: <20081111212504.GH28424@liawol.org> On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 04:23:32PM -0500, Jarod Wilson wrote: >Rumor has it the University of Puget Sound should have a mirror sitting >on a fairly beefy pipe coming live Real Soon Now, but yeah, the lack of >mirrors in Washington is kinda sad. :( Maybe everyone's just leaching >off Oregon. (i.e. OSU and Portland State) I know I am... --Glenn From frcaen at gmail.com Tue Nov 11 13:38:03 2008 From: frcaen at gmail.com (Francois Caen) Date: Tue Nov 11 13:35:10 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Job opportunities for younger geeks In-Reply-To: <893823750811111238t311d50d8sd8d3bcc0b9ea8f38@mail.gmail.com> References: <1226431924.25582.11.camel@gina> <893823750811111138s4c4fbb51gcfb073e5dd7cdcb6@mail.gmail.com> <893823750811111238t311d50d8sd8d3bcc0b9ea8f38@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <58cfe2840811111338p109d027eib31643ff8592c3be@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 12:38 PM, Bryan McLellan wrote: > I wouldn't eagerly tell people to drop out, but I have a problem with > the relentless "stay in school" mantra. The worst advice anyone ever > gave me was to stay in school, and more importantly the implication > that I would be a drug dealing loser if I dropped out, never going > anywhere with my life. Well, you did end up becoming an Ubuntu user, didn't you? ;-p -- Francois Caen From btm at loftninjas.org Tue Nov 11 13:41:15 2008 From: btm at loftninjas.org (Bryan McLellan) Date: Tue Nov 11 13:38:22 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Job opportunities for younger geeks In-Reply-To: <58cfe2840811111338p109d027eib31643ff8592c3be@mail.gmail.com> References: <1226431924.25582.11.camel@gina> <893823750811111138s4c4fbb51gcfb073e5dd7cdcb6@mail.gmail.com> <893823750811111238t311d50d8sd8d3bcc0b9ea8f38@mail.gmail.com> <58cfe2840811111338p109d027eib31643ff8592c3be@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <893823750811111341w5ee9cc8ex6b8fbbf16268e11b@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 1:38 PM, Francois Caen wrote: > On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 12:38 PM, Bryan McLellan wrote: >> I wouldn't eagerly tell people to drop out, but I have a problem with >> the relentless "stay in school" mantra. The worst advice anyone ever >> gave me was to stay in school, and more importantly the implication >> that I would be a drug dealing loser if I dropped out, never going >> anywhere with my life. > > Well, you did end up becoming an Ubuntu user, didn't you? > ;-p Haha. Yes. *drumroll* And as such I generally spend my days leaching off the hard work of the open society community. *ching* I'm in therapy for it though. Last week I filed a bug on Redhat's bugzilla. From jarod at wilsonet.com Tue Nov 11 13:50:25 2008 From: jarod at wilsonet.com (Jarod Wilson) Date: Tue Nov 11 13:47:34 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Job opportunities for younger geeks In-Reply-To: <893823750811111341w5ee9cc8ex6b8fbbf16268e11b@mail.gmail.com> References: <1226431924.25582.11.camel@gina> <893823750811111138s4c4fbb51gcfb073e5dd7cdcb6@mail.gmail.com> <893823750811111238t311d50d8sd8d3bcc0b9ea8f38@mail.gmail.com> <58cfe2840811111338p109d027eib31643ff8592c3be@mail.gmail.com> <893823750811111341w5ee9cc8ex6b8fbbf16268e11b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1226440225.14480.13.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> On Tue, 2008-11-11 at 13:41 -0800, Bryan McLellan wrote: > On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 1:38 PM, Francois Caen wrote: > > On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 12:38 PM, Bryan McLellan wrote: > >> I wouldn't eagerly tell people to drop out, but I have a problem with > >> the relentless "stay in school" mantra. The worst advice anyone ever > >> gave me was to stay in school, and more importantly the implication > >> that I would be a drug dealing loser if I dropped out, never going > >> anywhere with my life. > > > > Well, you did end up becoming an Ubuntu user, didn't you? > > ;-p > > Haha. Yes. > > *drumroll* > > And as such I generally spend my days leaching off the hard work of > the open society community. > > *ching* > > I'm in therapy for it though. Last week I filed a bug on Redhat's bugzilla. Somewhat amusingly, this just came across my radar: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/11165/ The second comment is particularly rich, but at least people with clue chimed in later. -- Jarod Wilson jarod@wilsonet.com From btm at loftninjas.org Tue Nov 11 14:06:22 2008 From: btm at loftninjas.org (Bryan McLellan) Date: Tue Nov 11 14:03:27 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] linux startup, was: Job opportunities for younger geeks Message-ID: <893823750811111406w3427ba02ja826a6f5a131f0ea@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 1:50 PM, Jarod Wilson wrote: > Somewhat amusingly, this just came across my radar: > > http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/11165/ > > The second comment is particularly rich, but at least people with clue > chimed in later. Haha. Second comment was awesome. It'd be awesome to see that in a blueprint dependency tree. 1) Wait for Fedora to finish plymouth 2) ... 3) Glory I was doing some work recently getting serial console working under libvirt/kvm and was initally confused, then happy to see upstart is gaining some more ground. /etc/inittab under Intrepid now consists of: #-- runit begin SV:123456:respawn:/usr/sbin/runsvdir-start #-- runit end I had to relearn how to enable a serial console login, but it was super easy and overall I'm glad to see the framework is getting used now. Bryan From btm at loftninjas.org Tue Nov 11 14:10:23 2008 From: btm at loftninjas.org (Bryan McLellan) Date: Tue Nov 11 14:07:35 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] repositories, was: Job opportunities for younger geeks Message-ID: <893823750811111410r4de7c777nf4f92fedf374b04d@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 1:25 PM, Glenn Stone wrote: > On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 04:23:32PM -0500, Jarod Wilson wrote: >>Rumor has it the University of Puget Sound should have a mirror sitting >>on a fairly beefy pipe coming live Real Soon Now, but yeah, the lack of >>mirrors in Washington is kinda sad. :( Maybe everyone's just leaching >>off Oregon. (i.e. OSU and Portland State) I switched to mirrors.xmission.com last week because went down and caused all kinds of annoying cron job emails. Hippies down in pdx must have been smoking pot and riding bikes or something. Someone get the SIX to donate an uplink to my box in the Seattle Community Colo and we'll put a little something something there. =D Bryan From paul-bartell at ubuntu.com Tue Nov 11 14:15:27 2008 From: paul-bartell at ubuntu.com (Paul Bartell) Date: Tue Nov 11 14:12:31 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] repositories, was: Job opportunities for younger geeks In-Reply-To: <893823750811111410r4de7c777nf4f92fedf374b04d@mail.gmail.com> References: <893823750811111410r4de7c777nf4f92fedf374b04d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2b5bab0f0811111415j7ddfbb80tae9adf6b99eda7cf@mail.gmail.com> What about UW? They seem to have plenty-o-bandwidth, most of its symmetrical too, thus they arent uploading much. On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 2:10 PM, Bryan McLellan wrote: > On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 1:25 PM, Glenn Stone wrote: >> On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 04:23:32PM -0500, Jarod Wilson wrote: >>>Rumor has it the University of Puget Sound should have a mirror sitting >>>on a fairly beefy pipe coming live Real Soon Now, but yeah, the lack of >>>mirrors in Washington is kinda sad. :( Maybe everyone's just leaching >>>off Oregon. (i.e. OSU and Portland State) > > I switched to mirrors.xmission.com last week because went down and > caused all kinds of annoying cron job emails. Hippies down in pdx must > have been smoking pot and riding bikes or something. Someone get the > SIX to donate an uplink to my box in the Seattle Community Colo and > we'll put a little something something there. =D > > Bryan > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > -- Random quote of the week/month/whenever i get to updating it: "Opportunity knocked. My doorman threw him out." - Adrienne Gusoff "At school you don't get parole, good behavior only brings a longer sentence." - The History Boys From jarod at wilsonet.com Tue Nov 11 14:24:01 2008 From: jarod at wilsonet.com (Jarod Wilson) Date: Tue Nov 11 14:21:11 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Re: linux startup, was: Job opportunities for younger geeks In-Reply-To: <893823750811111406w3427ba02ja826a6f5a131f0ea@mail.gmail.com> References: <893823750811111406w3427ba02ja826a6f5a131f0ea@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1226442241.14480.17.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> On Tue, 2008-11-11 at 14:06 -0800, Bryan McLellan wrote: > On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 1:50 PM, Jarod Wilson wrote: > > Somewhat amusingly, this just came across my radar: > > > > http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/11165/ > > > > The second comment is particularly rich, but at least people with clue > > chimed in later. > > Haha. Second comment was awesome. It'd be awesome to see that in a > blueprint dependency tree. > > 1) Wait for Fedora to finish plymouth > 2) ... > 3) Glory :D > I was doing some work recently getting serial console working under > libvirt/kvm and was initally confused, then happy to see upstart is > gaining some more ground. /etc/inittab under Intrepid now consists of: > > #-- runit begin > SV:123456:respawn:/usr/sbin/runsvdir-start > #-- runit end > > I had to relearn how to enable a serial console login, but it was > super easy and overall I'm glad to see the framework is getting used > now. Yep, we're doing more or less the same thing over here -- inittab has only one non-comment line: id:5:initdefault: Slightly more verbose with the comments though, including a pointer on how to set up serial console, because yeah, that's a wee bit different now, and has tripped up more than a few people... :) -- Jarod Wilson jarod@wilsonet.com From steven_coles at yahoo.com Tue Nov 11 14:33:02 2008 From: steven_coles at yahoo.com (Michael_Faraday) Date: Tue Nov 11 14:30:10 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Mirror in Washington State In-Reply-To: <1226438612.14480.8.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> Message-ID: <108634.16982.qm@web36401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> All, It's more distant than PSU, but it does exist. ftp://ftp.wallawalla.edu/pub/ Steven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081111/956959a0/attachment.htm From btm at loftninjas.org Tue Nov 11 14:34:12 2008 From: btm at loftninjas.org (Bryan McLellan) Date: Tue Nov 11 14:31:18 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Re: linux startup, was: Job opportunities for younger geeks In-Reply-To: <1226442241.14480.17.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> References: <893823750811111406w3427ba02ja826a6f5a131f0ea@mail.gmail.com> <1226442241.14480.17.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> Message-ID: <893823750811111434n5530c35fpc9538559548e3dae@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 2:24 PM, Jarod Wilson wrote: > On Tue, 2008-11-11 at 14:06 -0800, Bryan McLellan wrote: >> I had to relearn how to enable a serial console login, but it was >> super easy and overall I'm glad to see the framework is getting used >> now. > > Yep, we're doing more or less the same thing over here -- inittab has > only one non-comment line: > > id:5:initdefault: > > Slightly more verbose with the comments though, including a pointer on > how to set up serial console, because yeah, that's a wee bit different > now, and has tripped up more than a few people... :) For the record on Intrepid: sed s/tty1/ttyS0/ /etc/event.d/tty1 > /etc/event.d/ttyS0 && start ttyS0 As Andy Filer likes to say, "The Power Of Unix!". Although, he only says it when he's giving me a hard time about how I shouldn't virtualize, so this is really just a convoluted attempt to prod at him since he's not on-list. Or actually, I did this recently so this is easier than blogging it at the moment. Bryan From btm at loftninjas.org Tue Nov 11 14:58:41 2008 From: btm at loftninjas.org (Bryan McLellan) Date: Tue Nov 11 14:55:51 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Mirror in Washington State In-Reply-To: <108634.16982.qm@web36401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1226438612.14480.8.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <108634.16982.qm@web36401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <893823750811111458p3236c316u5ee5b218ee735a1e@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 2:33 PM, Michael_Faraday wrote: > It's more distant than PSU, but it does exist. > > ftp://ftp.wallawalla.edu/pub/ Doesn't really count unless you're on campus though because I can't squeeze anything out of those tubes. mirrors.cat.pdx.edu + mirrors.xmission.com are close enough and have decent pipes. Something connected to the Westin would just be wonderful though. From jnicol at bluegecko.net Tue Nov 11 14:58:13 2008 From: jnicol at bluegecko.net (Jonathan Nicol) Date: Tue Nov 11 15:01:59 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Mirror in Washington State In-Reply-To: <108634.16982.qm@web36401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <108634.16982.qm@web36401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5BCF02B3-8CA7-4DC1-9406-2F54ACA90AFE@bluegecko.net> X10 also has a mirror in the Seattle area: http://mirror.x10.com/ Jonathan On Nov 11, 2008, at 2:33 PM, Michael_Faraday wrote: > All, > > It's more distant than PSU, but it does exist. > > ftp://ftp.wallawalla.edu/pub/ > > Steven > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081111/097439e3/attachment.html From moephan at yahoo.com Tue Nov 11 15:06:25 2008 From: moephan at yahoo.com (Rick Spencer) Date: Tue Nov 11 15:10:09 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Job opportunities for younger geeks In-Reply-To: <1226431924.25582.11.camel@gina> Message-ID: <160685.31065.qm@web30802.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Andrew, I've been a hiring manager for a few years now, but only for programmers, designers, project managers, testers, and usability engineers. So in terms of advice, I can only speak for myself and for the product development side (looks like you are more interested in Ops): When I hire, here's what I look for: 1. Someone who is genuinely interested in technology. I like to hear about people's side projects and hobbies that are tech related. 2. Someone with a user focus. I want to hear as much passion about users using your products as about how cool the technology is. 3. Someone with an engineering/quality mindset. Have you been systematic in how you approach problems, and do your solutions stand the test of time because they are engineered rather than hacked together? 4. Much less important is experience with the specific technology we are using at the time. If you hit the first three traits, you can most likely pick up the specific technology quickly, and anyway, we could always change what we're using if a better tool set comes along. Formal education and certs are not something I typically spend a lot of time looking at, instead I focus on past work. If you are looking for short term money, than there's always web development. Put together an AJAX web site, then contact one of the placement agencies downtown and take their aptitude test. If you prove some basic skills that way, you'll be able to pick up jobs here and there. HTH, happy to talk more offline if you want. Cheers, Rick --- On Tue, 11/11/08, Andrew Gray wrote: > From: Andrew Gray > Subject: [Gslug-general] Job opportunities for younger geeks > To: Gslug-general@gslug.org > Date: Tuesday, November 11, 2008, 11:32 AM > Hello fellow gsluggers, > > My name's Andrew Gray, and I'm eighteen and still > in high school. I was > curious as to whether any of you know of any small job > opportunities for > younger, less experienced linux (or simply computer) geeks > that involved > technology. Things might range from mundane tech tasks to > building > towers from scratch. Do any of you know of groups that can > offer those > kind of conditions? > > Also, a friend of mine a long time ago got some sort of > technological > certification, allowing him to work on things like this. > That was in > Missouri though; do any of you know about something of this > nature? > > Thanks for any wisdom you may pass forth, > --Andrew > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general From btm at loftninjas.org Tue Nov 11 15:14:06 2008 From: btm at loftninjas.org (Bryan McLellan) Date: Tue Nov 11 15:11:14 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Mirror in Washington State In-Reply-To: <5BCF02B3-8CA7-4DC1-9406-2F54ACA90AFE@bluegecko.net> References: <108634.16982.qm@web36401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <5BCF02B3-8CA7-4DC1-9406-2F54ACA90AFE@bluegecko.net> Message-ID: <893823750811111514u7a1ac982n38b653421dcc5247@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 2:58 PM, Jonathan Nicol wrote: > X10 also has a mirror in the Seattle area: > http://mirror.x10.com/ omfg. You are awesome. http://mirror.x10.com/mirror/ubuntu/dists/intrepid/Contents-amd64.gz 2008-11-11 15:12:44 (2.04 MB/s) - `Contents-amd64.gz' saved [15002918/15002918] 2mb/s. Time to change where apt-mirror points to. From chuckw at quantumlinux.com Tue Nov 11 15:26:30 2008 From: chuckw at quantumlinux.com (Chuck Wolber) Date: Tue Nov 11 15:24:19 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Job opportunities for younger geeks In-Reply-To: <20081111205951.GG28424@liawol.org> References: <1226431924.25582.11.camel@gina> <893823750811111138s4c4fbb51gcfb073e5dd7cdcb6@mail.gmail.com> <893823750811111238t311d50d8sd8d3bcc0b9ea8f38@mail.gmail.com> <20081111205951.GG28424@liawol.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Nov 2008, Glenn Stone wrote: [...] > I'm glad I went to college, but not so much for the classwork as the people > I met and the work experience I gained while in school. Agreed, I learned a lot in class, but I got 10x more out of just being there and soaking up what was around me. You're in an environment that contains the best and the brightest, so it's no surprise that you'll encounter some pretty interesting people. [...] > It sounds like you're too late to explore AP options in high school, but > if anyone else is reading this who's younger, tear into the AP courses > with a vengeance. Particularly the soft stuff. Careful. Schools like UW are very specific about what AP classes they'll grant credit for (assuming you took the AP credit test for the class). It's not a slam-dunk. [...] > English, history, philsophy, psych, basketweaving, whatever. It will > help your GPA and it will help keep you from going stark raving bonkers. I ended up having to take some 100 level classes towards the end of my college career to fulfill some requirements. I couldn't believe how easy they were. Then I looked back and realized that they were just as hard as the 100 level classes I took during my freshman year. I just understood the system better. ..Chuck.. -- http://www.quantumlinux.com | "An idea does not gain Quantum Linux Laboratories, LLC. | truth as it gains ACCELERATING Business with Open Technology | followers." Amanda Bloom From technoshaman at liawol.org Tue Nov 11 15:30:17 2008 From: technoshaman at liawol.org (Glenn Stone) Date: Tue Nov 11 15:27:30 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Mirror in Washington State In-Reply-To: <893823750811111458p3236c316u5ee5b218ee735a1e@mail.gmail.com> References: <1226438612.14480.8.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <108634.16982.qm@web36401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <893823750811111458p3236c316u5ee5b218ee735a1e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081111233017.GJ28424@liawol.org> On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 02:58:41PM -0800, Bryan McLellan wrote: >On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 2:33 PM, Michael_Faraday wrote: >> It's more distant than PSU, but it does exist. >> >> ftp://ftp.wallawalla.edu/pub/ > >Doesn't really count unless you're on campus though because I can't >squeeze anything out of those tubes. mirrors.cat.pdx.edu + >mirrors.xmission.com are close enough and have decent pipes. Something >connected to the Westin would just be wonderful though. I tend to use OSU, backed up by mirrors.kernel.org, which is topographically close to most things. But, yes, something in or a hop or two off Westin would be nice.... Hmmmm. *Ideally* non-profit, but if a Linux-friendly company could be persuaded, that would be OK... Also, let's embrace the power of "and"... Fedora AND Debian AND Ubuntu AND CentOS... how much disk is that? Terabytes are cheap.... Lessee... 2x 1TB drives RAID 1 appropriate controller as much RAM as the M/B can handle (cache, anyone?) dual 100mb eth Almost any CPU these days would do it; I know a 486 DX/2-66 will fill a T-1; do the math :) Ideally a third TB drive in a USB2.0 enclosure for backups 1GB flash boot drive, set read-only... ideally running something like Puppy that loads to RAM. Remote syslog host, doesn't have to be colo'ed, and maybe shouldn't. sshd for maint, keyed access only httpd vsftpd These should be only external functions running, and internal ones kept to a minimum. (mirrord would be one.) thoughts? Glenn From paul-bartell at ubuntu.com Tue Nov 11 16:18:02 2008 From: paul-bartell at ubuntu.com (Paul Bartell) Date: Tue Nov 11 16:15:07 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Mirror in Washington State In-Reply-To: <20081111233017.GJ28424@liawol.org> References: <1226438612.14480.8.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <108634.16982.qm@web36401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <893823750811111458p3236c316u5ee5b218ee735a1e@mail.gmail.com> <20081111233017.GJ28424@liawol.org> Message-ID: <2b5bab0f0811111618m62b6565cwb1d30dcef8b2927a@mail.gmail.com> Didn't Superb have a seattle mirror for sourceforge a while back? I wonder if they would be willing to host another open source mirror... On 11/11/08, Glenn Stone wrote: > On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 02:58:41PM -0800, Bryan McLellan wrote: > >On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 2:33 PM, Michael_Faraday wrote: > >> It's more distant than PSU, but it does exist. > >> > >> ftp://ftp.wallawalla.edu/pub/ > > > >Doesn't really count unless you're on campus though because I can't > >squeeze anything out of those tubes. mirrors.cat.pdx.edu + > >mirrors.xmission.com are close enough and have decent pipes. Something > >connected to the Westin would just be wonderful though. > > > I tend to use OSU, backed up by mirrors.kernel.org, which is topographically > close to most things. But, yes, something in or a hop or two off Westin > would be nice.... > > Hmmmm. *Ideally* non-profit, but if a Linux-friendly company could be > persuaded, that would be OK... > > Also, let's embrace the power of "and"... Fedora AND Debian AND Ubuntu AND > CentOS... how much disk is that? Terabytes are cheap.... > > Lessee... > 2x 1TB drives RAID 1 > appropriate controller > as much RAM as the M/B can handle (cache, anyone?) > dual 100mb eth > Almost any CPU these days would do it; I know a 486 DX/2-66 will fill a T-1; > do the math :) > Ideally a third TB drive in a USB2.0 enclosure for backups > 1GB flash boot drive, set read-only... ideally running something like Puppy > that loads to RAM. > Remote syslog host, doesn't have to be colo'ed, and maybe shouldn't. > > sshd for maint, keyed access only > httpd > vsftpd > > These should be only external functions running, and internal ones kept to a > minimum. (mirrord would be one.) > > thoughts? > > > Glenn > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > -- Random quote of the week/month/whenever i get to updating it: "Opportunity knocked. My doorman threw him out." - Adrienne Gusoff "At school you don't get parole, good behavior only brings a longer sentence." - The History Boys From jarod at wilsonet.com Tue Nov 11 19:44:29 2008 From: jarod at wilsonet.com (Jarod Wilson) Date: Tue Nov 11 19:41:40 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Mirror in Washington State In-Reply-To: <893823750811111514u7a1ac982n38b653421dcc5247@mail.gmail.com> References: <108634.16982.qm@web36401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <5BCF02B3-8CA7-4DC1-9406-2F54ACA90AFE@bluegecko.net> <893823750811111514u7a1ac982n38b653421dcc5247@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1226461469.5885.25.camel@icarus.wilsonet.com> On Tue, 2008-11-11 at 15:14 -0800, Bryan McLellan wrote: > On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 2:58 PM, Jonathan Nicol wrote: > > X10 also has a mirror in the Seattle area: > > http://mirror.x10.com/ > > omfg. You are awesome. Doesn't seem to embrace Glenn's power of "and" though... --jarod From technoshaman at liawol.org Tue Nov 11 19:56:45 2008 From: technoshaman at liawol.org (Glenn Stone) Date: Tue Nov 11 19:53:50 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Mirror in Washington State In-Reply-To: <1226461469.5885.25.camel@icarus.wilsonet.com> References: <108634.16982.qm@web36401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <5BCF02B3-8CA7-4DC1-9406-2F54ACA90AFE@bluegecko.net> <893823750811111514u7a1ac982n38b653421dcc5247@mail.gmail.com> <1226461469.5885.25.camel@icarus.wilsonet.com> Message-ID: <20081112035645.GK28424@liawol.org> On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 10:44:29PM -0500, Jarod Wilson wrote: >On Tue, 2008-11-11 at 15:14 -0800, Bryan McLellan wrote: >> On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 2:58 PM, Jonathan Nicol wrote: >> > X10 also has a mirror in the Seattle area: >> > http://mirror.x10.com/ >> >> omfg. You are awesome. > >Doesn't seem to embrace Glenn's power of "and" though... It's got *some* and; Apache, OpenBSD, MySQL, GnuFTPD, as well as Ubuntu, but no Red Hat, no Gentoo, not even Deb... oh, and I swiped the "and" thing elsewhere; can't take credit for it... :) -- Glenn From jarod at wilsonet.com Tue Nov 11 20:31:13 2008 From: jarod at wilsonet.com (Jarod Wilson) Date: Tue Nov 11 20:28:23 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Mirror in Washington State In-Reply-To: <20081112035645.GK28424@liawol.org> References: <108634.16982.qm@web36401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <5BCF02B3-8CA7-4DC1-9406-2F54ACA90AFE@bluegecko.net> <893823750811111514u7a1ac982n38b653421dcc5247@mail.gmail.com> <1226461469.5885.25.camel@icarus.wilsonet.com> <20081112035645.GK28424@liawol.org> Message-ID: <1226464273.5885.45.camel@icarus.wilsonet.com> On Tue, 2008-11-11 at 19:56 -0800, Glenn Stone wrote: > On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 10:44:29PM -0500, Jarod Wilson wrote: > >On Tue, 2008-11-11 at 15:14 -0800, Bryan McLellan wrote: > >> On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 2:58 PM, Jonathan Nicol wrote: > >> > X10 also has a mirror in the Seattle area: > >> > http://mirror.x10.com/ > >> > >> omfg. You are awesome. > > > >Doesn't seem to embrace Glenn's power of "and" though... > > It's got *some* and; Apache, OpenBSD, MySQL, GnuFTPD, as well as Ubuntu, but > no Red Hat, no Gentoo, not even Deb... Yeah, I think I was thinking solely along the lines of Linux distros. > oh, and I swiped the "and" thing elsewhere; can't take credit for it... :) I believe you mean "borrowed" :) But anyhow, back to the issue of a lack of mirrors in Washington State... The lack of mirrors is indeed confusing. Why on earth don't at least the UW and/or WSU have mirrors? Does Bill donate so much money that they don't dare? Is the state just behind the times? Enquiring minds want to know... --jarod From m3047 at inwa.net Tue Nov 11 20:54:04 2008 From: m3047 at inwa.net (Fred Morris) Date: Tue Nov 11 20:53:22 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Job opportunities for younger geeks In-Reply-To: <893823750811111238t311d50d8sd8d3bcc0b9ea8f38@mail.gmail.com> References: <1226431924.25582.11.camel@gina> <893823750811111238t311d50d8sd8d3bcc0b9ea8f38@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200811112054.04833.m3047@inwa.net> Technically speaking I never graduated high school... I needed health and clay. I've gotten one college credit, for Mathematics 464 at the UW. View from 30,000 feet: education is expensive... learning to learn: priceless! My one regret? That mantra that everyone should have a trade and a profession. I never got my crack at a trade until a almost two years ago, when on a lark I went to work for some hardwood floorguys as their "shop boy" for the exercise (I was pushing 50 then, I'm 50 now) and when that didn't make me go away they promoted me to estimator and I learned a lot about people which they don't teach you in college and which has helped my professional growth... although that's hard to explain. It sure didn't pay as well as IT, but I had real fun doing it, and the business cycles for it are very different than IT... plus it's hella better exercise. Back when I was in high school, the counselors (and the parents, to the extent they cared) always steered me away from learning a trade, everything had to be focused on getting into college and taking on a lot of debt and being in the rat race or something like that... and I really think they did me a disservice. In the end I never really did exactly get into college, either (in spite of the aforementioned college cred)... I followed Hunder S. Thompson's advice "when the going gets weird, the weird turn pro". (When I was much younger, I did work as an electronics tech. I don't know what's out there now, you'll just have to be creative.) I've had incredibly interesting opportunities, in IT and elsewhere... and it's true, we make our own luck (hah! like it's easy!). I do agree: being an IT consultant is feast or famine... but so are the trades... that's why I wish I'd gotten into the trades much younger. (I think I might be in a recession-proof IT position at the present time.) -- Fred Morris On Tuesday 11 November 2008 12:38, Bryan McLellan wrote: > On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 12:08 PM, Chuck Wolber wrote: > > This is good advice, but I think the best advice anyone ever gave me was: > > "STAY IN SCHOOL"! Hopefully you aren't considering the easy money and are > > using IT to help pay the tuition bills. In the IT world, you'll make a lot > > more, and get a lot more interesting opportunities, if you have that > > degree. > > Oh oh. Someone brought this up. > > Dropping out is more work that staying in school if you want to be > "accomplished". > > I wouldn't eagerly tell people to drop out, but I have a problem with > the relentless "stay in school" mantra. From pencil_pusher at hotmail.com Wed Nov 12 01:23:01 2008 From: pencil_pusher at hotmail.com (David) Date: Wed Nov 12 01:25:14 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Mirror in Washington State References: <1226438612.14480.8.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com><108634.16982.qm@web36401.mail.mud.yahoo.com><893823750811111458p3236c316u5ee5b218ee735a1e@mail.gmail.com><20081111233017.GJ28424@liawol.org> <2b5bab0f0811111618m62b6565cwb1d30dcef8b2927a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Is this for distro downloads? I get pimpin speeds hitting up the torrents from the Netherlands, fwiw. Well, as pimpin as Comcast will let me. Too bad Seattle won't get Verizon fios... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Bartell" To: "Glenn Stone" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 4:18 PM Subject: Re: [Gslug-general] Mirror in Washington State > Didn't Superb have a seattle mirror for sourceforge a while back? I > wonder if they would be willing to host another open source mirror... > On 11/11/08, Glenn Stone wrote: >> On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 02:58:41PM -0800, Bryan McLellan wrote: >> >On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 2:33 PM, Michael_Faraday >> wrote: >> >> It's more distant than PSU, but it does exist. >> >> >> >> ftp://ftp.wallawalla.edu/pub/ >> > >> >Doesn't really count unless you're on campus though because I can't >> >squeeze anything out of those tubes. mirrors.cat.pdx.edu + >> >mirrors.xmission.com are close enough and have decent pipes. Something >> >connected to the Westin would just be wonderful though. >> >> >> I tend to use OSU, backed up by mirrors.kernel.org, which is >> topographically >> close to most things. But, yes, something in or a hop or two off Westin >> would be nice.... >> >> Hmmmm. *Ideally* non-profit, but if a Linux-friendly company could be >> persuaded, that would be OK... >> >> Also, let's embrace the power of "and"... Fedora AND Debian AND Ubuntu >> AND >> CentOS... how much disk is that? Terabytes are cheap.... >> >> Lessee... >> 2x 1TB drives RAID 1 >> appropriate controller >> as much RAM as the M/B can handle (cache, anyone?) >> dual 100mb eth >> Almost any CPU these days would do it; I know a 486 DX/2-66 will fill a >> T-1; >> do the math :) >> Ideally a third TB drive in a USB2.0 enclosure for backups >> 1GB flash boot drive, set read-only... ideally running something like >> Puppy >> that loads to RAM. >> Remote syslog host, doesn't have to be colo'ed, and maybe shouldn't. >> >> sshd for maint, keyed access only >> httpd >> vsftpd >> >> These should be only external functions running, and internal ones kept >> to a >> minimum. (mirrord would be one.) >> >> thoughts? >> >> >> Glenn >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Gslug-general mailing list >> Gslug-general@gslug.org >> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general >> > > > -- > Random quote of the week/month/whenever i get to updating it: > "Opportunity knocked. My doorman threw him out." - Adrienne Gusoff > > "At school you don't get parole, good behavior only brings a longer > sentence." - The History Boys > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > From jarod at wilsonet.com Wed Nov 12 07:33:18 2008 From: jarod at wilsonet.com (Jarod Wilson) Date: Wed Nov 12 07:30:34 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Mirror in Washington State In-Reply-To: References: <1226438612.14480.8.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <108634.16982.qm@web36401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <893823750811111458p3236c316u5ee5b218ee735a1e@mail.gmail.com> <20081111233017.GJ28424@liawol.org> <2b5bab0f0811111618m62b6565cwb1d30dcef8b2927a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1226503998.9231.29.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> On Wed, 2008-11-12 at 01:23 -0800, David wrote: > Is this for distro downloads? I get pimpin speeds hitting up the torrents > from the Netherlands, fwiw. I was thinking iso downloads, full package trees (since there's a lot more available for most distros that just what gets onto the install isos), and package updates. > Well, as pimpin as Comcast will let me. Too bad Seattle won't get > Verizon fios... Yeah, "Comcast" and "pimpin" don't belong in the same sentence. :) I count myself among the fortunate, FiOS came to my area almost 2 years ago now. --jarod From kormoc at gmail.com Wed Nov 12 07:58:13 2008 From: kormoc at gmail.com (Rob Smith) Date: Wed Nov 12 07:55:16 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Mirror in Washington State In-Reply-To: References: <1226438612.14480.8.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <108634.16982.qm@web36401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <893823750811111458p3236c316u5ee5b218ee735a1e@mail.gmail.com> <20081111233017.GJ28424@liawol.org> <2b5bab0f0811111618m62b6565cwb1d30dcef8b2927a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <456dee40811120758j52d2718bnfd6f12b435910bc2@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 1:23 AM, David wrote: > Too bad Seattle won't get Verizon fios... Who said it won't? It's all down the east side and Bothell to Mountlake Terrace certainly has it. I've had it in Kirkland for two years now. A handful of users are reporting having it in Seattle, http://www.broadbandreports.com/gmaps/fios From technoshaman at liawol.org Wed Nov 12 08:58:04 2008 From: technoshaman at liawol.org (Glenn Stone) Date: Wed Nov 12 08:55:08 2008 Subject: Phat bandwidth (was: Re: [Gslug-general] Mirror in Washington State) In-Reply-To: <456dee40811120758j52d2718bnfd6f12b435910bc2@mail.gmail.com> References: <1226438612.14480.8.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <108634.16982.qm@web36401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <893823750811111458p3236c316u5ee5b218ee735a1e@mail.gmail.com> <20081111233017.GJ28424@liawol.org> <2b5bab0f0811111618m62b6565cwb1d30dcef8b2927a@mail.gmail.com> <456dee40811120758j52d2718bnfd6f12b435910bc2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081112165804.GO28424@liawol.org> On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 07:58:13AM -0800, Rob Smith wrote: >On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 1:23 AM, David wrote: >> Too bad Seattle won't get Verizon fios... > >Who said it won't? It's all down the east side and Bothell to >Mountlake Terrace certainly has it. I've had it in Kirkland for two >years now. > >A handful of users are reporting having it in Seattle, >http://www.broadbandreports.com/gmaps/fios I'd be much more likely to get Speakeasy ADSL2.... and I think Qwest is doing something similar. (Metro Ethernet or some such?) Fiber is sexy but Verizon customer-no-service.... *shudder* there's a reason I was very happy to move out of their service area. You get what you pay for. Speakeasy, OTOH, is worth the customer service premium, if you have the bucks... (Qwest is the only ILEC I'd ever consider working with again; they were the only one to give the NSA boys the _digitus impudicus_ when their phone-sniffing team came a-knockin'.... that and they don't exactly whoops their cookies when you mention Linux, *and* the little DSL-router-wifi thingy they sell (I think it's by 2wire) is OS-agnostic, works well, and probably has Linux under the hood given the sorts of port forwarding it's doing.) Comcast? Only if it was the only game in town. And that would have me replacing the WRT54GL with the biggest, baddest, bring-it-pop-tart firewall I could lay hands on.... and pimpin' is probably the right word, but somebody should check those packets for NTD's.... -- Glenn From pencil_pusher at hotmail.com Wed Nov 12 10:21:05 2008 From: pencil_pusher at hotmail.com (David) Date: Wed Nov 12 10:18:22 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Mirror in Washington State References: <1226438612.14480.8.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <108634.16982.qm@web36401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <893823750811111458p3236c316u5ee5b218ee735a1e@mail.gmail.com> <20081111233017.GJ28424@liawol.org> <2b5bab0f0811111618m62b6565cwb1d30dcef8b2927a@mail.gmail.com> <456dee40811120758j52d2718bnfd6f12b435910bc2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: That map shows all of two pins for Seattle. Presuming "exact location" is just that, one user lives on the Yesler bridge over I-5 and in their profile lists their location as Bellingham. From what I understand, Qwest has some 'understanding' with the city of seattle, so while the outlying regions will get it, nobody in this corrupt town will. Though Qwest itself does hold some sliver of hope for fios.... Speakeasy's ADSL2 is pretty darned expensive considering it starts at $150/month for eight megabit service. Verizon's pricing plan is depressingly affordable at 50Mb for $140. Maybe I should just move to Shoreline? ;) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rob Smith" To: "David" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 7:58 AM Subject: Re: [Gslug-general] Mirror in Washington State > On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 1:23 AM, David wrote: >> Too bad Seattle won't get Verizon fios... > > Who said it won't? It's all down the east side and Bothell to > Mountlake Terrace certainly has it. I've had it in Kirkland for two > years now. > > A handful of users are reporting having it in Seattle, > http://www.broadbandreports.com/gmaps/fios > From brandon at cloudmade.com Wed Nov 12 10:57:46 2008 From: brandon at cloudmade.com (Brandon Aguirre) Date: Wed Nov 12 11:00:42 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] OpenStreetMap Seattle Mapping Party November 15 & 16 Message-ID: Come join me at Online Coffee Company this weekend and map some of your favorite locations in Seattle! Mapping parties are community events targetted at getting a specific area mapped in a day or a weekend. You come along, are loaned a GPS unit and shown how to use it (it's easy!) and you go out mapping an area of your choosing. Then you come back and are shown how to get that data in to the map. They are relaxed events and you're supposed to have fun. Often we grab a beer after the event, and this is no exception. Info 11:00am-4:00pm Sat 11/15 & 11:00am-3:00pm Sun 11/16 Online Coffee Company 1404 E. Pine Street Seattle, Washington 206-323-7798 http://www.onlinecoffeeco.com/ drink / food afterward NO GPS REQUIRED - we'll lend you a GPS and show you how to use it, or we can use paper and other ways to capture data. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Seattle http://upcoming.yahoo.com/event/1322946 http://www.meetup.com/OpenStreetMap-Mapping-Party-Seattle/ Cheers, Brandon Aguirre Community Development CloudMade 503.998.1567 brandon@cloudmade.com www.cloudmade.com From eric at extremeboredom.net Wed Nov 12 11:08:59 2008 From: eric at extremeboredom.net (Eric Butler) Date: Wed Nov 12 11:06:04 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] repositories, was: Job opportunities for younger geeks In-Reply-To: <893823750811111410r4de7c777nf4f92fedf374b04d@mail.gmail.com> References: <893823750811111410r4de7c777nf4f92fedf374b04d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <491B29CB.2040601@extremeboredom.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081112/c034388a/attachment-0001.htm From eric at extremeboredom.net Wed Nov 12 11:18:33 2008 From: eric at extremeboredom.net (Eric Butler) Date: Wed Nov 12 11:15:38 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Re: November 8th Meeting at Widemile In-Reply-To: <4A4EE56A-8047-42AD-84E9-618DA6E07AA3@intarcorp.com> References: <1805229248-1226108645-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-6296544-@bxe340.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <893823750811071948o83a9327w6393d343c5415e59@mail.gmail.com> <49150D0A.3080906@chipnick.com> <49153B8A.3010600@extremeboredom.net> <4b5c15340811101116i2362f312l34e8696cbbfa2296@mail.gmail.com> <1226353102.25582.5.camel@gina> <4A4EE56A-8047-42AD-84E9-618DA6E07AA3@intarcorp.com> Message-ID: <491B2C09.8080006@extremeboredom.net> Although it may seem like a classroom would be a better format, this was never the case when we met at NSCC. Since moving downtown, I've tried planning things to do after the talks (Ubuntu bug day, etc.) but these have never materialized - everyone usually leaves after the talks. That said, I certainly would like a bigger space. I really encourage everyone to speak up at meetings if they think things are getting off topic, I can't always tell if everyone is interested in what's happening or not. I will try to make a more distinct separation between the structured talks and free-formed discussion next month, though, to give people an un-akward opportunity to leave or to start their own conversations. What sort of interest is there for group projects at future meetings, and what can we all do differently to make them actually happen? - Eric Jeremiah T. Gray wrote: > I concur with Andrew in this, but I blame it on the room; the > conference room format combined with such high turnout made it > impractical to move around and talk with other folks. The old CC > classroom was perfect for smaller group subsets, but this last venue > just wouldn't work for that unless no more than a dozen people showed > imho. Of course, I'm grateful to anyone who will offer shelter to a > bunch of Linux geeks, so what're you gonna do? > > On a mostly unrelated note, would anyone like to get together > separately to discuss tactics for expanding Linux-based curriculums > into various educational settings? We've discussed it some on the > list, but the threads tend to become hypothetical musings. I'd like > to talk very specifically and comprehensively about where courses of > all levels are being offered, what the curriculums and fee structures > are, and whether we can help reinforce existing efforts or start > entirely new ones. > > This is an area of personal interest and focus for me, and I'm not > trying to co-opt GSLUG or form another organization; I just want to > connect people who may be working on this sort of stuff on their own > in order to coordinate a better strategy for making a better > educational pipeline. > > Some topics/goals might include: > * How to best establish relationships with decision-makers at > schools who can introduce Linux-based operating systems > * Determining how to get Linux training programs to youth and/or > vocational centers > * Creating a comprehensive list of places currently offering > Linux-based educational programs and what they teach > * Communicating with businesses that use Linux to determine what > their needs and expectations are from applicants > > I'd also be interested in working with small businesses and their > trade groups to get Linux-based systems into places where it would be > a practical alternative, but that seems like something for Phase 2. > > Jeremiah > > > > > On Nov 10, 2008, at 1:38 PM, Andrew Gray wrote: > >> I think the meeting went well. The location was nice, in my opinion, and >> had a great view. Seating was limited, but then again, it was also >> limited at Speakeasy, but we managed all right. I had a window sill >> seat, which was actually pretty comfortable. However, the limited >> seating isn't exactly a bad sign; it's great to see so many people >> interested in the GSLUG. >> >> One note about the meeting was that after the lightning talks, >> particularly toward the end, the questions got rather off-topic and bled >> into the free forum time, with only a couple of people going off on >> tangents that didn't apply to most people in the room. People can reply >> to this message and say that they were genuinely interested in those >> discussions, but what I'm saying is that they didn't have to do with the >> lightning talk itself. I would have much preferred to be able to go >> around to the individual lightning talkers and ask questions of them and >> learn more about what they were saying rather than wait a rather lengthy >> amount of time for others to finish their flame wars. >> >> I've been rather frank in this email, and gslugger friends, please don't >> take offense by this. I'm speaking from what I experienced in my honest >> opinion. You're free to disagree. >> >> On Mon, 2008-11-10 at 11:16 -0800, Ian Gallagher wrote: >>> How did the meeting go? What do people think of the Widemile location? >>> >>> >>> -Ian >>> >>> On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 23:11, Eric Butler >>> wrote: >>> Cupcakes sound great! >>> >>> There won't be pizza tomorrow, so if anyone can bring snacks >>> to share with the group please do. We'll likely migrate to a >>> nearby restaurant after the meeting. >>> >>> See everyone tomorrow, >>> - Eric >>> >>> Ahmed Osman wrote: >>>> >>>> Sounds good. I'll bring 1.5 dozen tomorrow. Let me know what >>>> kind you want, http://cupcakeroyale.com/thecupcakes.html >>>> A dollar or two donation would be awesome :P >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Bryan McLellan wrote: >>>>> On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 5:44 PM, Ahmed Osman >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Really random, but does Anyone want a cupcake from cupcake royale? >>>>>> >>>>> Yeah, bring all the cupcakes you can. There's no food commitment, so >>>>> we'll have to gather up some snacks. >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Gslug-general mailing list >>>>> Gslug-general@gslug.org >>>>> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ____________________________________________________________ >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Gslug-general mailing list Gslug-general@gslug.org >>>> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Gslug-general mailing list >>> Gslug-general@gslug.org >>> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Gslug-general mailing list >>> Gslug-general@gslug.org >>> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Gslug-general mailing list >> Gslug-general@gslug.org >> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general From steven_coles at yahoo.com Wed Nov 12 12:21:45 2008 From: steven_coles at yahoo.com (Michael_Faraday) Date: Wed Nov 12 12:18:50 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Job Offer: Is this Legitimate? In-Reply-To: <491B2C09.8080006@extremeboredom.net> Message-ID: <614803.3456.qm@web36405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> All, I don't qualify for employment emphasizing the software side. If this looks legit, maybe someone else here can use it. LinkedIn Eric Lessard has sent you a message. Date: 11/12/2008 Subject: ATG - Quick Question Hi Steven, I hope you are well. I am a Recruiter for ATG in Cambridge, MA. We have an open Linux Systems Engineer position out of our Seattle office right now. Would you know anyone who may be interested? Thanks for the help/direction. Eric From: "Eric Lessard" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081112/d47fa3ed/attachment.html From fusiondog at gmail.com Wed Nov 12 12:38:30 2008 From: fusiondog at gmail.com (Rick) Date: Wed Nov 12 12:35:35 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Job Offer: Is this Legitimate? In-Reply-To: <614803.3456.qm@web36405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <614803.3456.qm@web36405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <491B3EC6.2080102@gmail.com> Michael_Faraday wrote: > > > All, > > > > I don't qualify for employment emphasizing the software side. If this > looks legit, maybe someone else here can use it. > > > *LinkedIn* > > *Eric Lessard* has sent you a message. > > *Date:* 11/12/2008 > > *Subject:* ATG - Quick Question > > Hi Steven, > > I hope you are well. I am a Recruiter for ATG in Cambridge, MA. We > have an open Linux Systems Engineer position out of our Seattle office > right now. > > Would you know anyone who may be interested? > > Thanks for the help/direction. > > Eric > > From: > > "Eric Lessard" > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general I saw that one on craigslist today. From pencil_pusher at hotmail.com Wed Nov 12 13:23:22 2008 From: pencil_pusher at hotmail.com (David) Date: Wed Nov 12 13:20:15 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Mirror in Washington State References: <1226438612.14480.8.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com><108634.16982.qm@web36401.mail.mud.yahoo.com><893823750811111458p3236c316u5ee5b218ee735a1e@mail.gmail.com><20081111233017.GJ28424@liawol.org><2b5bab0f0811111618m62b6565cwb1d30dcef8b2927a@mail.gmail.com> <1226503998.9231.29.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> Message-ID: What about torrents for these? How about bypassing the net entirely and creating a 'mesh' wifi network for such? I have a parabolic and an extra box with plenty-o-space. Le pimpin gslug of wifi goodness? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jarod Wilson" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 7:33 AM Subject: Re: [Gslug-general] Mirror in Washington State > On Wed, 2008-11-12 at 01:23 -0800, David wrote: >> Is this for distro downloads? I get pimpin speeds hitting up the >> torrents >> from the Netherlands, fwiw. > > I was thinking iso downloads, full package trees (since there's a lot > more available for most distros that just what gets onto the install > isos), and package updates. > > >> Well, as pimpin as Comcast will let me. Too bad Seattle won't get >> Verizon fios... > > Yeah, "Comcast" and "pimpin" don't belong in the same sentence. :) > > I count myself among the fortunate, FiOS came to my area almost 2 years > ago now. > > --jarod > > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > From btm at loftninjas.org Wed Nov 12 13:29:33 2008 From: btm at loftninjas.org (Bryan McLellan) Date: Wed Nov 12 13:26:37 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Mirror in Washington State In-Reply-To: References: <1226438612.14480.8.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <108634.16982.qm@web36401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <893823750811111458p3236c316u5ee5b218ee735a1e@mail.gmail.com> <20081111233017.GJ28424@liawol.org> <2b5bab0f0811111618m62b6565cwb1d30dcef8b2927a@mail.gmail.com> <1226503998.9231.29.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> Message-ID: <893823750811121329m71b2c09dn9a840cf23eec0b2f@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 1:23 PM, David wrote: > What about torrents for these? How about bypassing the net entirely and > creating a 'mesh' wifi network for such? I have a parabolic and an extra > box with plenty-o-space. Le pimpin gslug of wifi goodness? Good luck though getting those Seattle Wireless jerks to stop drinking beer and start creating a network. It's actually a lot of work, and not a ton of bandwidth in the end. From jarod at wilsonet.com Wed Nov 12 13:42:10 2008 From: jarod at wilsonet.com (Jarod Wilson) Date: Wed Nov 12 13:39:19 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Mirror in Washington State In-Reply-To: <893823750811121329m71b2c09dn9a840cf23eec0b2f@mail.gmail.com> References: <1226438612.14480.8.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <108634.16982.qm@web36401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <893823750811111458p3236c316u5ee5b218ee735a1e@mail.gmail.com> <20081111233017.GJ28424@liawol.org> <2b5bab0f0811111618m62b6565cwb1d30dcef8b2927a@mail.gmail.com> <1226503998.9231.29.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <893823750811121329m71b2c09dn9a840cf23eec0b2f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1226526130.9231.40.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> On Wed, 2008-11-12 at 13:29 -0800, Bryan McLellan wrote: > On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 1:23 PM, David wrote: > > What about torrents for these? How about bypassing the net entirely and > > creating a 'mesh' wifi network for such? Ew, do you really want a torrent for every single package update? One of the kernel.org mirror admins (Jon Hawley, iirc) actually gave a pretty interesting talk on why bittorrent can really suck for large mirrors w/large pipes at the Ottawa Linux Symposium a few months ago... The talk was titled something like "bittorret considered harmful", but it was more an inflammatory title to get butts in seats, was really more of a "why bittorrent is quite suboptimal if you already have a massive pipe to distribute bits, and ways in which torrents could be improved". > I have a parabolic What's the range on that thing like? I'm guessing it still won't reach me... (I live in the Boston area now. :) > and an extra > > box with plenty-o-space. Le pimpin gslug of wifi goodness? > > Good luck though getting those Seattle Wireless jerks to stop drinking > beer and start creating a network. > > It's actually a lot of work, and not a ton of bandwidth in the end. And potentially irrelevant, if wimax ever gets off the ground... (wimax: coming to a city other than Baltimore in ... well, check back later... Did you want that this decade?...) -- Jarod Wilson jarod@wilsonet.com From technoshaman at liawol.org Wed Nov 12 14:01:09 2008 From: technoshaman at liawol.org (Glenn Stone) Date: Wed Nov 12 13:58:13 2008 Subject: /hSPAM/ Re: [Gslug-general] Mirror in Washington State In-Reply-To: References: <1226503998.9231.29.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> Message-ID: <20081112220109.GQ28424@liawol.org> On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 01:23:22PM -0800, David wrote: > What about torrents for these? How about bypassing the net entirely and > creating a 'mesh' wifi network for such? I have a parabolic and an extra > box with plenty-o-space. Le pimpin gslug of wifi goodness? *nodnodnod* There is a "torrent" method in apt now, ne-c'est-pas? Wish I could glom on to Seattle Wireless or some such where I'm at... assuming it was reliable... (I dunno, I'm just sayin'...) -- Glenn > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jarod Wilson" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 7:33 AM > Subject: Re: [Gslug-general] Mirror in Washington State > > >> On Wed, 2008-11-12 at 01:23 -0800, David wrote: >>> Is this for distro downloads? I get pimpin speeds hitting up the >>> torrents >>> from the Netherlands, fwiw. >> >> I was thinking iso downloads, full package trees (since there's a lot >> more available for most distros that just what gets onto the install >> isos), and package updates. >> >> >>> Well, as pimpin as Comcast will let me. Too bad Seattle won't get >>> Verizon fios... >> >> Yeah, "Comcast" and "pimpin" don't belong in the same sentence. :) >> >> I count myself among the fortunate, FiOS came to my area almost 2 years >> ago now. >> >> --jarod >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Gslug-general mailing list >> Gslug-general@gslug.org >> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general >> > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > -- Glenn R. Stone, technoshaman@liawol.org | .~. Geek by Nature RHCE, Technomage, Linux and other Mysteries | / V \ -------------- There ARE no dress rehearsals. We ARE | /( )\ Linux by Choice professionals, and this IS the Big Time. | ^^-^^ From crash at neg9.org Wed Nov 12 14:08:30 2008 From: crash at neg9.org (Ian Gallagher) Date: Wed Nov 12 14:05:34 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Mirror in Washington State In-Reply-To: <1226526130.9231.40.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> References: <1226438612.14480.8.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <108634.16982.qm@web36401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <893823750811111458p3236c316u5ee5b218ee735a1e@mail.gmail.com> <20081111233017.GJ28424@liawol.org> <2b5bab0f0811111618m62b6565cwb1d30dcef8b2927a@mail.gmail.com> <1226503998.9231.29.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <893823750811121329m71b2c09dn9a840cf23eec0b2f@mail.gmail.com> <1226526130.9231.40.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> Message-ID: <4b5c15340811121408q30e629e9v42490ea2a7a697c1@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 13:42, Jarod Wilson wrote: > On Wed, 2008-11-12 at 13:29 -0800, Bryan McLellan wrote: > > > > Good luck though getting those Seattle Wireless jerks to stop drinking > > beer and start creating a network. > > > > It's actually a lot of work, and not a ton of bandwidth in the end. > > And potentially irrelevant, if wimax ever gets off the ground... (wimax: > coming to a city other than Baltimore in ... well, check back later... > Did you want that this decade?...) > > Well, Seattle Wireless doesn't exactly strive to be what wimax wants to be.. but let's not go and get off topic ;) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081112/54a5a132/attachment.htm From jarod at wilsonet.com Wed Nov 12 14:23:01 2008 From: jarod at wilsonet.com (Jarod Wilson) Date: Wed Nov 12 14:20:08 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Mirror in Washington State In-Reply-To: <4b5c15340811121408q30e629e9v42490ea2a7a697c1@mail.gmail.com> References: <1226438612.14480.8.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <108634.16982.qm@web36401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <893823750811111458p3236c316u5ee5b218ee735a1e@mail.gmail.com> <20081111233017.GJ28424@liawol.org> <2b5bab0f0811111618m62b6565cwb1d30dcef8b2927a@mail.gmail.com> <1226503998.9231.29.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <893823750811121329m71b2c09dn9a840cf23eec0b2f@mail.gmail.com> <1226526130.9231.40.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <4b5c15340811121408q30e629e9v42490ea2a7a697c1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1226528581.9231.43.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> On Wed, 2008-11-12 at 14:08 -0800, Ian Gallagher wrote: > On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 13:42, Jarod Wilson > wrote: > On Wed, 2008-11-12 at 13:29 -0800, Bryan McLellan wrote: > > > > > Good luck though getting those Seattle Wireless jerks to > stop drinking > > beer and start creating a network. > > > > It's actually a lot of work, and not a ton of bandwidth in > the end. > > > And potentially irrelevant, if wimax ever gets off the > ground... (wimax: > coming to a city other than Baltimore in ... well, check back > later... > Did you want that this decade?...) > > > Well, Seattle Wireless doesn't exactly strive to be what wimax wants > to be.. but let's not go and get off topic ;) Veering back on-topic... Intel *does* plan to do Linux drivers for their WiMax cards, and NetworkManager aims to support 'em. :) I have an iwl5350 card myself, which is an 802.11n/wimax combo card. The n side works great, the wimax side just sits there doing nothing right now. Not that a working driver would help any, since there's no service to be had, but... -- Jarod Wilson jarod@wilsonet.com From dxmio.web at gmail.com Wed Nov 12 15:04:56 2008 From: dxmio.web at gmail.com (dx mio) Date: Wed Nov 12 15:01:59 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] computer science masters programs Message-ID: <84d661d60811121504x5e00c96i3332db7c833e780b@mail.gmail.com> Hello, first time posting to the list (though I've lurked for a long time). What computer science masters programs are available at schools in the Seattle area? Anyone have any personal experience with any that they would be willing to share about? Are they weighted towards an open-source mindset, or a MS / Evil Empire mindset? Thanks -Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081112/4bafdb85/attachment.html From chuckw at quantumlinux.com Wed Nov 12 15:09:39 2008 From: chuckw at quantumlinux.com (Chuck Wolber) Date: Wed Nov 12 15:07:28 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] computer science masters programs In-Reply-To: <84d661d60811121504x5e00c96i3332db7c833e780b@mail.gmail.com> References: <84d661d60811121504x5e00c96i3332db7c833e780b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Nov 2008, dx mio wrote: [...] > What computer science masters programs are available at schools in the > Seattle area? Anyone have any personal experience with any that they > would be willing to share about? Are they weighted towards an > open-source mindset, or a MS / Evil Empire mindset? The University of Washington has an evening Masters program in CS. When you're done you get the same exact degree as the day students get. Here's the link to the program: http://pmp.cs.washington.edu/ As for weighting, I work with one person who is currently in the program and there's no propaganda or anything like that. He indicated that Java was generally used as the language of choice for teaching concepts, but by no means is that universal. ..Chuck.. -- http://www.quantumlinux.com | "An idea does not gain Quantum Linux Laboratories, LLC. | truth as it gains ACCELERATING Business with Open Technology | followers." Amanda Bloom From pencil_pusher at hotmail.com Wed Nov 12 15:34:01 2008 From: pencil_pusher at hotmail.com (David Hamilton) Date: Wed Nov 12 15:31:05 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Mirror in Washington State In-Reply-To: <1226528581.9231.43.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> References: <1226438612.14480.8.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <108634.16982.qm@web36401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <893823750811111458p3236c316u5ee5b218ee735a1e@mail.gmail.com> <20081111233017.GJ28424@liawol.org> <2b5bab0f0811111618m62b6565cwb1d30dcef8b2927a@mail.gmail.com> <1226503998.9231.29.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <893823750811121329m71b2c09dn9a840cf23eec0b2f@mail.gmail.com> <1226526130.9231.40.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <4b5c15340811121408q30e629e9v42490ea2a7a697c1@mail.gmail.com> <1226528581.9231.43.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> Message-ID: Hey, so here's a weird oddity... the new hotmail doesn't play well with linux. I could read but not reply. Apparently you need to modify the about:config in Firefox and change the general.useragent.vendor value to Firefox. For us mere mortals just downloading distros, torrents are fine. Of the eight flavors of Ubuntu 8.10, I was getting around 500KB/s. Make me cry with some obscene fios torrent speeds... > Subject: Re: [Gslug-general] Mirror in Washington State > From: jarod@wilsonet.com > To: gslug-general@gslug.org > Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 17:23:01 -0500 > > On Wed, 2008-11-12 at 14:08 -0800, Ian Gallagher wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 13:42, Jarod Wilson > > wrote: > > On Wed, 2008-11-12 at 13:29 -0800, Bryan McLellan wrote: > > > > > > > > Good luck though getting those Seattle Wireless jerks to > > stop drinking > > > beer and start creating a network. > > > > > > It's actually a lot of work, and not a ton of bandwidth in > > the end. > > > > > > And potentially irrelevant, if wimax ever gets off the > > ground... (wimax: > > coming to a city other than Baltimore in ... well, check back > > later... > > Did you want that this decade?...) > > > > > > Well, Seattle Wireless doesn't exactly strive to be what wimax wants > > to be.. but let's not go and get off topic ;) > > Veering back on-topic... Intel *does* plan to do Linux drivers for their > WiMax cards, and NetworkManager aims to support 'em. :) > > I have an iwl5350 card myself, which is an 802.11n/wimax combo card. The > n side works great, the wimax side just sits there doing nothing right > now. Not that a working driver would help any, since there's no service > to be had, but... > > > > -- > Jarod Wilson > jarod@wilsonet.com > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail now works up to 70% faster. http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_faster_112008 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081112/91a8ce36/attachment.htm From jakykong at theanythingbox.com Wed Nov 12 15:58:04 2008 From: jakykong at theanythingbox.com (Jack T Mudge III) Date: Wed Nov 12 15:53:43 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] computer science masters programs In-Reply-To: References: <84d661d60811121504x5e00c96i3332db7c833e780b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200811121558.04403.jakykong@theanythingbox.com> On Wednesday 12 November 2008 03:09:39 pm Chuck Wolber wrote: > On Wed, 12 Nov 2008, dx mio wrote: > > [...] > > > What computer science masters programs are available at schools in the > > Seattle area? Anyone have any personal experience with any that they > > would be willing to share about? Are they weighted towards an > > open-source mindset, or a MS / Evil Empire mindset? > > The University of Washington has an evening Masters program in CS. When > you're done you get the same exact degree as the day students get. Here's > the link to the program: > > http://pmp.cs.washington.edu/ > > As for weighting, I work with one person who is currently in the program > and there's no propaganda or anything like that. He indicated that Java > was generally used as the language of choice for teaching concepts, but by > no means is that universal. > > ..Chuck.. Makes me antsy. I'm working on my associate's degree right now, but just browsing the courses rekindles that impatience that got me where I am so far. Looks like it's going to be a lot of fun after Green River :). Anyone know what CWU offers? -- Sincerely, Jack Mudge jakykong@theanythingbox.com From gslug at davidrobins.net Wed Nov 12 19:20:51 2008 From: gslug at davidrobins.net (David Robins) Date: Wed Nov 12 19:24:34 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] computer science masters programs In-Reply-To: References: <84d661d60811121504x5e00c96i3332db7c833e780b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081113032051.GA20492@rivendell> On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 03:09:39PM -0800, Chuck Wolber wrote: > On Wed, 12 Nov 2008, dx mio wrote: > > [...] > > > What computer science masters programs are available at schools in the > > Seattle area? Anyone have any personal experience with any that they > > would be willing to share about? Are they weighted towards an > > open-source mindset, or a MS / Evil Empire mindset? > > The University of Washington has an evening Masters program in CS. When > you're done you get the same exact degree as the day students get. Here's > the link to the program: > > http://pmp.cs.washington.edu/ > > As for weighting, I work with one person who is currently in the program > and there's no propaganda or anything like that. He indicated that Java > was generally used as the language of choice for teaching concepts, but by > no means is that universal. I just started the PMP this quarter (finally got around to writing the GRE and applying this summer). The course I'm taking isn't a programming course (the one I wanted filled up, which "never" happens); there's a lot of MS people in it naturally (disclaimer: I are one), and the only bias I've seen is an assumption that people would be using PowerPoint for their class presentations (the prof. was open to other forms, he was just asking so he could merge them together for presentation day). I'd certainly hope programming courses would be OS-agnostic, since I'd much prefer to code on Linux. Feel free to reply to me off-list if you have specific questions. From jarod at wilsonet.com Wed Nov 12 20:08:16 2008 From: jarod at wilsonet.com (Jarod Wilson) Date: Wed Nov 12 20:05:24 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Mirror in Washington State In-Reply-To: References: <1226438612.14480.8.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <108634.16982.qm@web36401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <893823750811111458p3236c316u5ee5b218ee735a1e@mail.gmail.com> <20081111233017.GJ28424@liawol.org> <2b5bab0f0811111618m62b6565cwb1d30dcef8b2927a@mail.gmail.com> <1226503998.9231.29.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <893823750811121329m71b2c09dn9a840cf23eec0b2f@mail.gmail.com> <1226526130.9231.40.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <4b5c15340811121408q30e629e9v42490ea2a7a697c1@mail.gmail.com> <1226528581.9231.43.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> Message-ID: <1226549296.2913.4.camel@icarus.wilsonet.com> On Wed, 2008-11-12 at 15:34 -0800, David Hamilton wrote: > Hey, so here's a weird oddity... the new hotmail doesn't play well > with linux. Honestly, I'm more surprised people actually still use hotmail. ;) > I could read but not reply. Apparently you need to modify the > about:config in Firefox and change the general.useragent.vendor value > to Firefox. Huh. Not surprising that things wouldn't Just Work w/something other then aiee. At least you didn't have to change that value to "Internet Explorer" or something just to get it to work... > For us mere mortals just downloading distros, torrents are fine. You only download distros, no updates?!? :) > Of the eight flavors of Ubuntu 8.10, I was getting around 500KB/s. > Make me cry with some obscene fios torrent speeds... Yeah, I max out at about 2.4MB/s. :) --jarod From bentson at holmsjoen.com Wed Nov 12 20:37:02 2008 From: bentson at holmsjoen.com (Randolph Bentson) Date: Wed Nov 12 21:38:52 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Job opportunities for younger geeks In-Reply-To: <1226438612.14480.8.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> References: <1226431924.25582.11.camel@gina> <893823750811111138s4c4fbb51gcfb073e5dd7cdcb6@mail.gmail.com> <893823750811111238t311d50d8sd8d3bcc0b9ea8f38@mail.gmail.com> <20081111205951.GG28424@liawol.org> <1226438612.14480.8.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> Message-ID: <20081113043702.GB32597@holmsjoen.com> On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 04:23:32PM -0500, Jarod Wilson wrote: . > Rumor has it the University of Puget Sound should have a mirror sitting > on a fairly beefy pipe coming live Real Soon Now, but yeah, the lack of > mirrors in Washington is kinda sad. :( Maybe everyone's just leaching > off Oregon. (i.e. OSU and Portland State) Right now UPS has about 30 Mb/s unused upload capacity. I've mirrored F8, F9, and F10 for campus. I've got approval to mirror to public, but things have been a bit busy, so I haven't got the right people to configure the packet shaper to set appropriate limits for a full mirror, but it'll happen RSN. Meanwhile, I have brought up torrent clients for F9, F10-Snap2, F10-Snap3, and F10-Preview. Last time I looked UPS had supplied well over 500 GiB in uploads. (Yesterday our upload/download ratio was about 8/1 for F10-Preview.) I hope to grab the F10 torrent as it comes out and serve it up at 30 Mb/s or better for days on end. -- Randolph Bentson bentson@holmsjoen.com A.K.A. rbentson@ups.edu From frcaen at gmail.com Wed Nov 12 21:46:48 2008 From: frcaen at gmail.com (Francois Caen) Date: Wed Nov 12 21:43:52 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Job opportunities for younger geeks In-Reply-To: <20081113043702.GB32597@holmsjoen.com> References: <1226431924.25582.11.camel@gina> <893823750811111138s4c4fbb51gcfb073e5dd7cdcb6@mail.gmail.com> <893823750811111238t311d50d8sd8d3bcc0b9ea8f38@mail.gmail.com> <20081111205951.GG28424@liawol.org> <1226438612.14480.8.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <20081113043702.GB32597@holmsjoen.com> Message-ID: <58cfe2840811122146j4a45901dlf254e63fffead4df@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 8:37 PM, Randolph Bentson wrote: > I haven't got the right people to configure > the packet shaper to set appropriate limits for a full mirror Out of curiosity: do you guys do the shaping on linux, or so you use a commercial product? -- Francois Caen From paul-bartell at ubuntu.com Wed Nov 12 22:56:05 2008 From: paul-bartell at ubuntu.com (Paul Bartell) Date: Wed Nov 12 22:53:08 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Mirror in Washington State In-Reply-To: <1226549296.2913.4.camel@icarus.wilsonet.com> References: <1226438612.14480.8.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <1226503998.9231.29.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <893823750811121329m71b2c09dn9a840cf23eec0b2f@mail.gmail.com> <1226526130.9231.40.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <4b5c15340811121408q30e629e9v42490ea2a7a697c1@mail.gmail.com> <1226528581.9231.43.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <1226549296.2913.4.camel@icarus.wilsonet.com> Message-ID: <2b5bab0f0811122256r7aa2e99w109b4f0acae0638d@mail.gmail.com> And im sitting here trembling with my 3mbit comcast connection getting about 300KB/s On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 8:08 PM, Jarod Wilson wrote: > On Wed, 2008-11-12 at 15:34 -0800, David Hamilton wrote: >> Hey, so here's a weird oddity... the new hotmail doesn't play well >> with linux. > > Honestly, I'm more surprised people actually still use hotmail. ;) > >> I could read but not reply. Apparently you need to modify the >> about:config in Firefox and change the general.useragent.vendor value >> to Firefox. > > Huh. Not surprising that things wouldn't Just Work w/something other > then aiee. At least you didn't have to change that value to "Internet > Explorer" or something just to get it to work... > >> For us mere mortals just downloading distros, torrents are fine. > > You only download distros, no updates?!? :) > >> Of the eight flavors of Ubuntu 8.10, I was getting around 500KB/s. >> Make me cry with some obscene fios torrent speeds... > > Yeah, I max out at about 2.4MB/s. :) > > --jarod > > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > -- Random quote of the week/month/whenever i get to updating it: "Opportunity knocked. My doorman threw him out." - Adrienne Gusoff "At school you don't get parole, good behavior only brings a longer sentence." - The History Boys From jtg at intarcorp.com Wed Nov 12 23:01:31 2008 From: jtg at intarcorp.com (Jeremiah T. Gray) Date: Wed Nov 12 22:59:04 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Mirror in Washington State In-Reply-To: <2b5bab0f0811122256r7aa2e99w109b4f0acae0638d@mail.gmail.com> References: <1226438612.14480.8.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <1226503998.9231.29.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <893823750811121329m71b2c09dn9a840cf23eec0b2f@mail.gmail.com> <1226526130.9231.40.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <4b5c15340811121408q30e629e9v42490ea2a7a697c1@mail.gmail.com> <1226528581.9231.43.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <1226549296.2913.4.camel@icarus.wilsonet.com> <2b5bab0f0811122256r7aa2e99w109b4f0acae0638d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <07F58B2A-38BE-458E-BFB5-0D044A37E932@intarcorp.com> trembling? that makes me wonder, is "comcastic" a euphemism for "kinda sucky?" i want what south korea has (and no, i don't mean 2 males for every female). On Nov 12, 2008, at 10:56 PM, Paul Bartell wrote: > And im sitting here trembling with my 3mbit comcast connection getting > about 300KB/s > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 8:08 PM, Jarod Wilson > wrote: >> On Wed, 2008-11-12 at 15:34 -0800, David Hamilton wrote: >>> Hey, so here's a weird oddity... the new hotmail doesn't play well >>> with linux. >> >> Honestly, I'm more surprised people actually still use hotmail. ;) >> >>> I could read but not reply. Apparently you need to modify the >>> about:config in Firefox and change the general.useragent.vendor >>> value >>> to Firefox. >> >> Huh. Not surprising that things wouldn't Just Work w/something other >> then aiee. At least you didn't have to change that value to "Internet >> Explorer" or something just to get it to work... >> >>> For us mere mortals just downloading distros, torrents are fine. >> >> You only download distros, no updates?!? :) >> >>> Of the eight flavors of Ubuntu 8.10, I was getting around 500KB/s. >>> Make me cry with some obscene fios torrent speeds... >> >> Yeah, I max out at about 2.4MB/s. :) >> >> --jarod >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Gslug-general mailing list >> Gslug-general@gslug.org >> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general >> > > > > -- > Random quote of the week/month/whenever i get to updating it: > "Opportunity knocked. My doorman threw him out." - Adrienne Gusoff > > "At school you don't get parole, good behavior only brings a longer > sentence." - The History Boys > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general From pencil_pusher at hotmail.com Wed Nov 12 23:14:31 2008 From: pencil_pusher at hotmail.com (David) Date: Wed Nov 12 23:11:42 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Mirror in Washington State References: <1226438612.14480.8.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <108634.16982.qm@web36401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <893823750811111458p3236c316u5ee5b218ee735a1e@mail.gmail.com> <20081111233017.GJ28424@liawol.org> <2b5bab0f0811111618m62b6565cwb1d30dcef8b2927a@mail.gmail.com> <1226503998.9231.29.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <893823750811121329m71b2c09dn9a840cf23eec0b2f@mail.gmail.com> <1226526130.9231.40.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <4b5c15340811121408q30e629e9v42490ea2a7a697c1@mail.gmail.com> <1226528581.9231.43.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <1226549296.2913.4.camel@icarus.wilsonet.com> Message-ID: So putting a mirror in Washington will help you get your updates quicker in Boston??? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jarod Wilson" To: "David Hamilton" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 8:08 PM Subject: RE: [Gslug-general] Mirror in Washington State > On Wed, 2008-11-12 at 15:34 -0800, David Hamilton wrote: >> Hey, so here's a weird oddity... the new hotmail doesn't play well >> with linux. > > Honestly, I'm more surprised people actually still use hotmail. ;) > >> I could read but not reply. Apparently you need to modify the >> about:config in Firefox and change the general.useragent.vendor value >> to Firefox. > > Huh. Not surprising that things wouldn't Just Work w/something other > then aiee. At least you didn't have to change that value to "Internet > Explorer" or something just to get it to work... > >> For us mere mortals just downloading distros, torrents are fine. > > You only download distros, no updates?!? :) > >> Of the eight flavors of Ubuntu 8.10, I was getting around 500KB/s. >> Make me cry with some obscene fios torrent speeds... > > Yeah, I max out at about 2.4MB/s. :) > > --jarod > > > From jack at foys.net Wed Nov 12 23:23:57 2008 From: jack at foys.net (Jack Foy) Date: Thu Nov 13 00:04:52 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] computer science masters programs In-Reply-To: References: <84d661d60811121504x5e00c96i3332db7c833e780b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081113072357.GB3673@foys.net> Chuck Wolber wrote: > The University of Washington has an evening Masters program in CS. > [...] > He indicated that Java was generally used as the language of choice > for teaching concepts, but by no means is that universal. I'm another current PMP student. Of the programming courses I've taken, only one has had any language bias; that instructor furnished a Java framework for the term project, but we were advised we were free to roll our own if preferred. I've used Perl on Linux for almost everything else. -- Jack Foy From bentson at holmsjoen.com Thu Nov 13 01:41:07 2008 From: bentson at holmsjoen.com (Randolph Bentson) Date: Thu Nov 13 01:38:14 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Job opportunities for younger geeks In-Reply-To: <58cfe2840811122146j4a45901dlf254e63fffead4df@mail.gmail.com> References: <1226431924.25582.11.camel@gina> <893823750811111138s4c4fbb51gcfb073e5dd7cdcb6@mail.gmail.com> <893823750811111238t311d50d8sd8d3bcc0b9ea8f38@mail.gmail.com> <20081111205951.GG28424@liawol.org> <1226438612.14480.8.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <20081113043702.GB32597@holmsjoen.com> <58cfe2840811122146j4a45901dlf254e63fffead4df@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081113094107.GA1267@holmsjoen.com> On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 09:46:48PM -0800, Francois Caen wrote: > On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 8:37 PM, Randolph Bentson wrote: > > I haven't got the right people to configure > > the packet shaper to set appropriate limits for a full mirror > > Out of curiosity: do you guys do the shaping on linux, or so you use a > commercial product? I believe it's some commercial product. -- Randolph Bentson bentson@holmsjoen.com From jarod at wilsonet.com Thu Nov 13 06:17:55 2008 From: jarod at wilsonet.com (Jarod Wilson) Date: Thu Nov 13 06:15:05 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Mirror in Washington State In-Reply-To: References: <1226438612.14480.8.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <108634.16982.qm@web36401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <893823750811111458p3236c316u5ee5b218ee735a1e@mail.gmail.com> <20081111233017.GJ28424@liawol.org> <2b5bab0f0811111618m62b6565cwb1d30dcef8b2927a@mail.gmail.com> <1226503998.9231.29.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <893823750811121329m71b2c09dn9a840cf23eec0b2f@mail.gmail.com> <1226526130.9231.40.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <4b5c15340811121408q30e629e9v42490ea2a7a697c1@mail.gmail.com> <1226528581.9231.43.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <1226549296.2913.4.camel@icarus.wilsonet.com> Message-ID: <1226585875.16058.6.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> On Wed, 2008-11-12 at 23:14 -0800, David wrote: > So putting a mirror in Washington will help you get your updates quicker in > Boston??? Certainly not. A mirror in Washington is of very little benefit to me directly right now. But I'm a Seattle guy, born and raised. It might help me if I were back visiting family (my folks still live near Green Lake) or if I were to move back some day. Really, I'm just advocating for my home state. :) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jarod Wilson" > To: "David Hamilton" > Cc: > Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 8:08 PM > Subject: RE: [Gslug-general] Mirror in Washington State > > > > On Wed, 2008-11-12 at 15:34 -0800, David Hamilton wrote: > >> Hey, so here's a weird oddity... the new hotmail doesn't play well > >> with linux. > > > > Honestly, I'm more surprised people actually still use hotmail. ;) > > > >> I could read but not reply. Apparently you need to modify the > >> about:config in Firefox and change the general.useragent.vendor value > >> to Firefox. > > > > Huh. Not surprising that things wouldn't Just Work w/something other > > then aiee. At least you didn't have to change that value to "Internet > > Explorer" or something just to get it to work... > > > >> For us mere mortals just downloading distros, torrents are fine. > > > > You only download distros, no updates?!? :) > > > >> Of the eight flavors of Ubuntu 8.10, I was getting around 500KB/s. > >> Make me cry with some obscene fios torrent speeds... > > > > Yeah, I max out at about 2.4MB/s. :) -- Jarod Wilson jarod@wilsonet.com From ashex at chipnick.com Thu Nov 13 14:06:01 2008 From: ashex at chipnick.com (Ahmed Osman) Date: Thu Nov 13 14:03:07 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Mirror in Washington State In-Reply-To: <07F58B2A-38BE-458E-BFB5-0D044A37E932@intarcorp.com> References: <1226438612.14480.8.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <893823750811121329m71b2c09dn9a840cf23eec0b2f@mail.gmail.com> <1226526130.9231.40.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <4b5c15340811121408q30e629e9v42490ea2a7a697c1@mail.gmail.com> <1226528581.9231.43.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <1226549296.2913.4.camel@icarus.wilsonet.com> <2b5bab0f0811122256r7aa2e99w109b4f0acae0638d@mail.gmail.com> <07F58B2A-38BE-458E-BFB5-0D044A37E932@intarcorp.com> Message-ID: Don't forget that 3 Megabits per second does equal 384 Kilobytes per second, and that's just thoeretical speed. You get what you pay for ;) -Ahmed Osman On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 11:01 PM, Jeremiah T. Gray wrote: > trembling? that makes me wonder, is "comcastic" a euphemism for "kinda > sucky?" i want what south korea has (and no, i don't mean 2 males for every > female). > > > > > On Nov 12, 2008, at 10:56 PM, Paul Bartell wrote: > > And im sitting here trembling with my 3mbit comcast connection getting >> about 300KB/s >> >> On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 8:08 PM, Jarod Wilson wrote: >> >>> On Wed, 2008-11-12 at 15:34 -0800, David Hamilton wrote: >>> >>>> Hey, so here's a weird oddity... the new hotmail doesn't play well >>>> with linux. >>>> >>> >>> Honestly, I'm more surprised people actually still use hotmail. ;) >>> >>> I could read but not reply. Apparently you need to modify the >>>> about:config in Firefox and change the general.useragent.vendor value >>>> to Firefox. >>>> >>> >>> Huh. Not surprising that things wouldn't Just Work w/something other >>> then aiee. At least you didn't have to change that value to "Internet >>> Explorer" or something just to get it to work... >>> >>> For us mere mortals just downloading distros, torrents are fine. >>>> >>> >>> You only download distros, no updates?!? :) >>> >>> Of the eight flavors of Ubuntu 8.10, I was getting around 500KB/s. >>>> Make me cry with some obscene fios torrent speeds... >>>> >>> >>> Yeah, I max out at about 2.4MB/s. :) >>> >>> --jarod >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Gslug-general mailing list >>> Gslug-general@gslug.org >>> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Random quote of the week/month/whenever i get to updating it: >> "Opportunity knocked. My doorman threw him out." - Adrienne Gusoff >> >> "At school you don't get parole, good behavior only brings a longer >> sentence." - The History Boys >> _______________________________________________ >> Gslug-general mailing list >> Gslug-general@gslug.org >> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general >> > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081113/b2437cb6/attachment.html From brandon at cloudmade.com Fri Nov 14 14:27:26 2008 From: brandon at cloudmade.com (Brandon Aguirre) Date: Fri Nov 14 14:24:36 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Open Source Maps and Community Mapping Message-ID: Hello all, This is a last-minute reminder I'll be at Online Coffee Company on 14th and Pine Saturday the 15th and Sunday the 16th to talk about OpenStreetMap and how you can get involved with mapping your communities, bikeways, hiking trails, park paths, hidden gems and other points of interest using OpenStreetMap. I can loan you a GPS for the day and you can go out mapping, then I'll show you how to load it onto OSM! Check our wiki for the details and let me know you are coming either on upcoming.yahoo.com or meetup.com... or by emailing me directly... http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Seattle http://upcoming.yahoo.com/event/1322946/ http://www.meetup.com/OpenStreetMap-Mapping-Party-Seattle/ Cheers, Brandon Aguirre Community Development CloudMade skype: bragpdx 503.998.1567 brandon@cloudmade.com www.cloudmade.com From travis.eeepc at gmail.com Sat Nov 15 23:02:36 2008 From: travis.eeepc at gmail.com (Travis) Date: Sat Nov 15 22:59:36 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Mirror in Washington State References: <1226438612.14480.8.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com><108634.16982.qm@web36401.mail.mud.yahoo.com><893823750811111458p3236c316u5ee5b218ee735a1e@mail.gmail.com><20081111233017.GJ28424@liawol.org><2b5bab0f0811111618m62b6565cwb1d30dcef8b2927a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: David wrote: > Is this for distro downloads? I get pimpin speeds hitting up the > torrents from the Netherlands, fwiw. Well, as pimpin as Comcast will > let me. Too bad Seattle won't get Verizon fios... FiOS is coming to my neighborhood soon. -- Travis in Shoreline Washington From travis.eeepc at gmail.com Sat Nov 15 23:04:46 2008 From: travis.eeepc at gmail.com (Travis) Date: Sat Nov 15 23:01:40 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Mirror in Washington State References: <1226438612.14480.8.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com><108634.16982.qm@web36401.mail.mud.yahoo.com><893823750811111458p3236c316u5ee5b218ee735a1e@mail.gmail.com><20081111233017.GJ28424@liawol.org><2b5bab0f0811111618m62b6565cwb1d30dcef8b2927a@mail.gmail.com> <456dee40811120758j52d2718bnfd6f12b435910bc2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <084B85D20598421ABA5E71378075119B@EeePC> Rob Smith wrote: > On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 1:23 AM, David > wrote: >> Too bad Seattle won't get Verizon fios... > > Who said it won't? It's all down the east side and Bothell to > Mountlake Terrace certainly has it. I've had it in Kirkland for two > years now. AFAIK Verizon is only installing FiOS where they have copper. -- Travis in Shoreline Washington From travis.eeepc at gmail.com Sat Nov 15 23:17:51 2008 From: travis.eeepc at gmail.com (Travis) Date: Sat Nov 15 23:14:15 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Mirror in Washington State References: <1226438612.14480.8.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com><108634.16982.qm@web36401.mail.mud.yahoo.com><893823750811111458p3236c316u5ee5b218ee735a1e@mail.gmail.com><20081111233017.GJ28424@liawol.org><2b5bab0f0811111618m62b6565cwb1d30dcef8b2927a@mail.gmail.com><456dee40811120758j52d2718bnfd6f12b435910bc2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: David wrote: > That map shows all of two pins for Seattle. Presuming "exact > location" is just that, one user lives on the Yesler bridge over I-5 > and in their profile lists their location as Bellingham. From what I > understand, Qwest has some 'understanding' with the city of seattle, > so while the outlying regions will get it, nobody in this corrupt > town will. Though Qwest itself does hold some sliver of hope for > fios.... Speakeasy's ADSL2 is pretty darned expensive considering it > starts at > $150/month for eight megabit service. Verizon's pricing plan is > depressingly affordable at 50Mb for $140. Maybe I should just move to > Shoreline? ;) FiOS in Shoreline willbe $109.99 for 200 basic channels +100HD channels, unlimited calling to the US, Canada, Guam, Puerto Rico and the US Virgin Islands. 20/5 internet. I didn't ask about any other speeds. -- Travis in Shoreline Washington From travis.eeepc at gmail.com Sat Nov 15 23:38:11 2008 From: travis.eeepc at gmail.com (Travis) Date: Sat Nov 15 23:33:36 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Mirror in Washington State References: <1226438612.14480.8.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com><1226503998.9231.29.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com><893823750811121329m71b2c09dn9a840cf23eec0b2f@mail.gmail.com><1226526130.9231.40.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com><4b5c15340811121408q30e629e9v42490ea2a7a697c1@mail.gmail.com><1226528581.9231.43.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com><1226549296.2913.4.camel@icarus.wilsonet.com> <2b5bab0f0811122256r7aa2e99w109b4f0acae0638d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <30CC3D0CA2CD48B690A3AC0CC7952AEF@EeePC> Paul Bartell wrote: > And im sitting here trembling with my 3mbit comcast connection getting > about 300KB/s I thought Comcast was way faster than that. -- Travis in Shoreline Washington From paul-bartell at ubuntu.com Sun Nov 16 01:07:45 2008 From: paul-bartell at ubuntu.com (Paul Bartell) Date: Sun Nov 16 01:04:44 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Mirror in Washington State In-Reply-To: <30CC3D0CA2CD48B690A3AC0CC7952AEF@EeePC> References: <1226438612.14480.8.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <893823750811121329m71b2c09dn9a840cf23eec0b2f@mail.gmail.com> <1226526130.9231.40.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <4b5c15340811121408q30e629e9v42490ea2a7a697c1@mail.gmail.com> <1226528581.9231.43.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <1226549296.2913.4.camel@icarus.wilsonet.com> <2b5bab0f0811122256r7aa2e99w109b4f0acae0638d@mail.gmail.com> <30CC3D0CA2CD48B690A3AC0CC7952AEF@EeePC> Message-ID: <2b5bab0f0811160107p2ee48e62jae80d3c11cc5a2c@mail.gmail.com> They offer a 3mbit and 6 mbit plan, with "speed boosts" of up to 8 mbits, but depending on the area, they might give you around 15 mbits. On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 11:38 PM, Travis wrote: > Paul Bartell wrote: >> >> And im sitting here trembling with my 3mbit comcast connection getting >> about 300KB/s > > I thought Comcast was way faster than that. > -- > > Travis in Shoreline Washington > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > -- Random quote of the week/month/whenever i get to updating it: "Opportunity knocked. My doorman threw him out." - Adrienne Gusoff "At school you don't get parole, good behavior only brings a longer sentence." - The History Boys From gray.andrew at comcast.net Sun Nov 16 08:22:35 2008 From: gray.andrew at comcast.net (Andrew Gray) Date: Sun Nov 16 08:18:59 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Mirror in Washington State In-Reply-To: <30CC3D0CA2CD48B690A3AC0CC7952AEF@EeePC> References: <1226438612.14480.8.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <1226503998.9231.29.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <893823750811121329m71b2c09dn9a840cf23eec0b2f@mail.gmail.com> <1226526130.9231.40.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <4b5c15340811121408q30e629e9v42490ea2a7a697c1@mail.gmail.com> <1226528581.9231.43.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <1226549296.2913.4.camel@icarus.wilsonet.com> <2b5bab0f0811122256r7aa2e99w109b4f0acae0638d@mail.gmail.com> <30CC3D0CA2CD48B690A3AC0CC7952AEF@EeePC> Message-ID: <1226852555.5285.1.camel@gina> If we're talking down rate, Comcast is. I've gotten 1.2 MB/s downloading a distro, but that only lasted for about ninety seconds. Upload is claimed to be 384 KB/s, but the fastest I've downloaded from anywhere else is about 150 KB/s. Sorry this is kind of off-topic. Just my experience. On Sat, 2008-11-15 at 23:38 -0800, Travis wrote: > Paul Bartell wrote: > > And im sitting here trembling with my 3mbit comcast connection getting > > about 300KB/s > > I thought Comcast was way faster than that. From andrew.kvalheim at gmail.com Sun Nov 16 16:15:51 2008 From: andrew.kvalheim at gmail.com (Andrew Kvalheim) Date: Sun Nov 16 16:12:52 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Mirror in Washington State In-Reply-To: References: <1226438612.14480.8.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <2b5bab0f0811111618m62b6565cwb1d30dcef8b2927a@mail.gmail.com> <1226503998.9231.29.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <893823750811121329m71b2c09dn9a840cf23eec0b2f@mail.gmail.com> <1226526130.9231.40.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <4b5c15340811121408q30e629e9v42490ea2a7a697c1@mail.gmail.com> <1226528581.9231.43.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> Message-ID: <152aefdf0811161615p5dc69746ueedb53b3ed0cd5cf@mail.gmail.com> This is probably going to be a silly question for everyone, but... Why the obsession with speed? Admittedly, I am also just a "mere mortal downloading distros," but I don't understand the demand for blazing fast software downloads. Shouldn't the emphasis rather be placed on things like altruistic load balancing and political implications? What are everyone's thoughts on distributed solutions like BitTorrent? Will you only use them if they're faster for you, or would you sacrifice download speed for the general good? We've seen tremendous success already in commercial products like World of Warcraft that use the BitTorrent protocol to distribute game updates. Is there a future for technologies like DebTorrent and Apt-P2P? (Off topic: If that kind of thing catches on, could it even legitimize the protocol in the public eye after years of getting a bad rep from abuse by copyright infringement?) -- Andrew On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 15:34, David Hamilton wrote: > Hey, so here's a weird oddity... the new hotmail doesn't play well with > linux. I could read but not reply. Apparently you need to modify the > about:config in Firefox and change the general.useragent.vendor value to > Firefox. > > For us mere mortals just downloading distros, torrents are fine. Of the > eight flavors of Ubuntu 8.10, I was getting around 500KB/s. Make me cry > with some obscene fios torrent speeds... > > > >> Subject: Re: [Gslug-general] Mirror in Washington State >> From: jarod@wilsonet.com >> To: gslug-general@gslug.org >> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 17:23:01 -0500 >> >> On Wed, 2008-11-12 at 14:08 -0800, Ian Gallagher wrote: >> > On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 13:42, Jarod Wilson >> > wrote: >> > On Wed, 2008-11-12 at 13:29 -0800, Bryan McLellan wrote: >> > >> > > >> > > Good luck though getting those Seattle Wireless jerks to >> > stop drinking >> > > beer and start creating a network. >> > > >> > > It's actually a lot of work, and not a ton of bandwidth in >> > the end. >> > >> > >> > And potentially irrelevant, if wimax ever gets off the >> > ground... (wimax: >> > coming to a city other than Baltimore in ... well, check back >> > later... >> > Did you want that this decade?...) >> > >> > >> > Well, Seattle Wireless doesn't exactly strive to be what wimax wants >> > to be.. but let's not go and get off topic ;) >> >> Veering back on-topic... Intel *does* plan to do Linux drivers for their >> WiMax cards, and NetworkManager aims to support 'em. :) >> >> I have an iwl5350 card myself, which is an 802.11n/wimax combo card. The >> n side works great, the wimax side just sits there doing nothing right >> now. Not that a working driver would help any, since there's no service >> to be had, but... >> >> >> >> -- >> Jarod Wilson >> jarod@wilsonet.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Gslug-general mailing list >> Gslug-general@gslug.org >> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > > ________________________________ > Windows Live Hotmail now works up to 70% faster. Sign up today. > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > From btm at loftninjas.org Sun Nov 16 17:16:15 2008 From: btm at loftninjas.org (Bryan McLellan) Date: Sun Nov 16 17:13:14 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Mirror in Washington State In-Reply-To: <152aefdf0811161615p5dc69746ueedb53b3ed0cd5cf@mail.gmail.com> References: <1226438612.14480.8.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <1226503998.9231.29.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <893823750811121329m71b2c09dn9a840cf23eec0b2f@mail.gmail.com> <1226526130.9231.40.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <4b5c15340811121408q30e629e9v42490ea2a7a697c1@mail.gmail.com> <1226528581.9231.43.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <152aefdf0811161615p5dc69746ueedb53b3ed0cd5cf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <893823750811161716y61c2880djce053102d577d63f@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 4:15 PM, Andrew Kvalheim wrote: > Why the obsession with speed? I regularly download 100s of gigabytes of data in a day. Debian + Ubuntu packages have a reasonable solution, running apt-mirror and friends, provided you have plenty of storage. You can do something similar with Windows using SUS, but that doesn't solve the other ISO's and software updates that have to be downloaded. Every little bit helps. It's frustrating to wait for a download, get working, only to find you need more downloads and have to switch gears again. > Shouldn't the emphasis rather be > placed on things like altruistic load balancing and political > implications? I think that's kind of like saying that we want farmers to go back to using horse drawn carriages for our ideals. If individuals want to host an ISO on bittorrent, that's great. I have work to do and while I'm happy to engage a system that works well, even go a little out of my way, I don't believe we are there yet. > We've seen tremendous success already in commercial products like > World of Warcraft that use the BitTorrent protocol to distribute game > updates. Is there a future for technologies like DebTorrent and > Apt-P2P? (Off topic: If that kind of thing catches on, could it even > legitimize the protocol in the public eye after years of getting a bad > rep from abuse by copyright infringement?) I think your WoW example is proof that there is a future for these technologies. For it to really work the infrastructure needs to be built. It's easy for Blizzard, because they control the data that lots of people want, plus have little trouble (technical/privacy) putting clients on a large user base. I think bittorrent is already on the road to being publicly legitimized. Look at all the negative attention Comcast has gotten [1] in the federal government over their filtering. Bryan [1] http://news.cnet.com/Comcast-vs.-BitTorrent-to-be-focus-of-FCC-hearing/2100-1028_3-6231737.html From pencil_pusher at hotmail.com Sun Nov 16 22:42:18 2008 From: pencil_pusher at hotmail.com (David) Date: Sun Nov 16 22:39:05 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Mirror in Washington State References: <1226438612.14480.8.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com><893823750811121329m71b2c09dn9a840cf23eec0b2f@mail.gmail.com><1226526130.9231.40.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com><4b5c15340811121408q30e629e9v42490ea2a7a697c1@mail.gmail.com><1226528581.9231.43.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com><1226549296.2913.4.camel@icarus.wilsonet.com><2b5bab0f0811122256r7aa2e99w109b4f0acae0638d@mail.gmail.com><30CC3D0CA2CD48B690A3AC0CC7952AEF@EeePC> <2b5bab0f0811160107p2ee48e62jae80d3c11cc5a2c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Here in north seattle I see bursts up to 2.2MB/s, but these are very short lived. Sometimes I get lucky and get speeds of 1+ for 50MB or less. More often than not, my speed limit is 760-something. I doubt I've ever reached Comcast's magic 250GB/mo limit, but still it is nice to blitz through some downloads. I was impressed there were torrent leaks for all of these current distros. Maybe I hadn't noticed it before, but the speeds were nice and it was cool to let it seed. I'd imagine that would help with mirror bandwidth requirements. Hey Travis, have you tried Ubuntu Eee http://www.ubuntu-eee.com/ ? I have it with the netbook remix flavor on the 701 and it is nice. There were just a few easy tweaks and I wasn't too impressed with nbr when I first saw it, but it has grown on me. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Bartell" To: "Travis" Cc: Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 1:07 AM Subject: Re: [Gslug-general] Mirror in Washington State > They offer a 3mbit and 6 mbit plan, with "speed boosts" of up to 8 > mbits, but depending on the area, they might give you around 15 mbits. > > On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 11:38 PM, Travis wrote: >> Paul Bartell wrote: >>> >>> And im sitting here trembling with my 3mbit comcast connection getting >>> about 300KB/s >> >> I thought Comcast was way faster than that. >> -- >> >> Travis in Shoreline Washington >> _______________________________________________ >> Gslug-general mailing list >> Gslug-general@gslug.org >> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general >> > > > > -- > Random quote of the week/month/whenever i get to updating it: > "Opportunity knocked. My doorman threw him out." - Adrienne Gusoff > > "At school you don't get parole, good behavior only brings a longer > sentence." - The History Boys > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > From m3047 at inwa.net Sun Nov 16 23:33:05 2008 From: m3047 at inwa.net (Fred Morris) Date: Sun Nov 16 23:31:57 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Mirror in Washington State In-Reply-To: <152aefdf0811161615p5dc69746ueedb53b3ed0cd5cf@mail.gmail.com> References: <1226438612.14480.8.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com> <152aefdf0811161615p5dc69746ueedb53b3ed0cd5cf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200811162333.05779.m3047@inwa.net> On Sunday 16 November 2008 16:15, Andrew Kvalheim wrote: > [...] Shouldn't the emphasis rather be > placed on things like altruistic load balancing and political > implications?[...] My brain hurts now. -- Fred Morris, somewhere in Ballard From eric at extremeboredom.net Mon Nov 17 01:18:04 2008 From: eric at extremeboredom.net (Eric Butler) Date: Mon Nov 17 01:15:08 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Everyone: Please read and share your thoughts on how to improve GSLUG Message-ID: <492136CC.7090002@extremeboredom.net> Hello everyone, I'm re-sending this same email with a new subject in case the reason nobody replied was because it was lost in the other thread. Although it may seem like a classroom would be a better format, this was never the case when we met at NSCC. Since moving downtown, I've tried planning things to do after the talks (Ubuntu bug day, etc.) but these have never materialized - everyone usually leaves after the talks. That said, I certainly would like a bigger space. I really encourage everyone to speak up at meetings if they think things are getting off topic, I can't always tell if everyone is interested in what's happening or not. I will try to make a more distinct separation between the structured talks and free-formed discussion next month, though, to give people an un-akward opportunity to leave or to start their own conversations. What sort of interest is there for group projects at future meetings, and what can we all do differently to make them actually happen? - Eric From travis.eeepc at gmail.com Mon Nov 17 07:41:45 2008 From: travis.eeepc at gmail.com (Travis) Date: Mon Nov 17 07:38:40 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Mirror in Washington State References: <1226438612.14480.8.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com><893823750811121329m71b2c09dn9a840cf23eec0b2f@mail.gmail.com><1226526130.9231.40.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com><4b5c15340811121408q30e629e9v42490ea2a7a697c1@mail.gmail.com><1226528581.9231.43.camel@xavier.wilsonet.com><1226549296.2913.4.camel@icarus.wilsonet.com><2b5bab0f0811122256r7aa2e99w109b4f0acae0638d@mail.gmail.com><30CC3D0CA2CD48B690A3AC0CC7952AEF@EeePC><2b5bab0f0811160107p2ee48e62jae80d3c11cc5a2c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B9C3E9EDF844246BD7CE9DA2607F8BD@EeePC> David wrote: > Hey Travis, have you tried Ubuntu Eee http://www.ubuntu-eee.com/ ? > I have it with the netbook remix flavor on the 701 and it is nice. There > were just a few easy tweaks and I wasn't too impressed with nbr > when I first saw it, but it has grown on me. I tried it but had problems getting everything to work. I'm waiting for eeebuntu to release their Ibex version, any day now they say. It is supposed to have the array.org kernel and all drivers included. I sold my 702 and have a 1000H now. -- Travis in Shoreline Washington From sjbenner at gmail.com Mon Nov 17 08:43:19 2008 From: sjbenner at gmail.com (Josh Benner) Date: Mon Nov 17 08:49:10 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Everyone: Please read and share your thoughts on how to improve GSLUG In-Reply-To: <492136CC.7090002@extremeboredom.net> References: <492136CC.7090002@extremeboredom.net> Message-ID: <1b044f780811170843q118b4ab0y16cb92b578416bfb@mail.gmail.com> Personally I'm interested in group projects. I've only been to a couple of meetings so I don't know what has been tried. I think that scheduling specific activities might help, along with enlisting the help of those who can mentor the process. If we have a goal in mind and 3 or 4 people facilitating, it might be easier to get others engaged. -Josh Benner On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 1:18 AM, Eric Butler wrote: > Hello everyone, > > I'm re-sending this same email with a new subject in case the reason nobody > replied was because it was lost in the other thread. > > > > Although it may seem like a classroom would be a better format, this was > never the case when we met at NSCC. Since moving downtown, I've tried > planning things to do after the talks (Ubuntu bug day, etc.) but these have > never materialized - everyone usually leaves after the talks. That said, I > certainly would like a bigger space. > > I really encourage everyone to speak up at meetings if they think things > are getting off topic, I can't always tell if everyone is interested in > what's happening or not. I will try to make a more distinct separation > between the structured talks and free-formed discussion next month, though, > to give people an un-akward opportunity to leave or to start their own > conversations. > > What sort of interest is there for group projects at future meetings, and > what can we all do differently to make them actually happen? > > - Eric > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081117/499ae66b/attachment.htm From davidm777 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 17 09:33:41 2008 From: davidm777 at yahoo.com (David) Date: Mon Nov 17 09:30:36 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Everyone: Please read and share your thoughts on how to improve GSLUG In-Reply-To: <492136CC.7090002@extremeboredom.net> Message-ID: <101346.13587.qm@web53709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> As with most groups of humans this size, there are going to be sub-sets of wants.? So speaking for myself and perhaps no one else (ha), the GSLUG meetings have value for me in exposing me to new ideas, methods, and app.s.? As someone using Linux for 2 years, most everything is new.? Not only is using Linux (the shell, scripting, distros, hardware, etc.) still 'new' for me, but so are the applications (WAMP, security stuff, network management, VPN/SSH, etc.). So for me, as a not-all-day user of Linux, there have always been one or two talks, conversations, or ideas per meeting that have been very worthwhile.? Often unexpected. I can state this: when people talk about what they LIKE (the 'duplicity' talk a few months ago comes to mind), I always get _something_ out of it. Since I have yet to get to a place where I have something to offer... my 'request' is simply for people to step out and simply talk about what they like, what they just recently came across or figured out, etc.? I may not use/employ what is being talked about (ex. again: duplicity), but I DO end up with better solutions than if left to myself. [In the case of duplicity, I had to figure out what if I needed to redo my small network: would setting it up to work well with duplicity make my network better overall? or am I would it be worse?? I ended up not using duplicity but my network IS better backed-up and easier to maintain.] Last thing: I've never seen a 'project' done in the context of these meetings - I haven't been around long enough, I suppose.? So I am not opposed to them nor for them: I have no idea. My 2 cents, David --- On Mon, 11/17/08, Eric Butler wrote: From: Eric Butler Subject: [Gslug-general] Everyone: Please read and share your thoughts on how to improve GSLUG To: gslug-general@gslug.org Date: Monday, November 17, 2008, 1:18 AM Hello everyone, I'm re-sending this same email with a new subject in case the reason nobody replied was because it was lost in the other thread. Although it may seem like a classroom would be a better format, this was never the case when we met at NSCC. Since moving downtown, I've tried planning things to do after the talks (Ubuntu bug day, etc.) but these have never materialized - everyone usually leaves after the talks. That said, I certainly would like a bigger space. I really encourage everyone to speak up at meetings if they think things are getting off topic, I can't always tell if everyone is interested in what's happening or not. I will try to make a more distinct separation between the structured talks and free-formed discussion next month, though, to give people an un-akward opportunity to leave or to start their own conversations. What sort of interest is there for group projects at future meetings, and what can we all do differently to make them actually happen? - Eric _______________________________________________ Gslug-general mailing list Gslug-general@gslug.org http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081117/03094ba5/attachment.html From gray.andrew at comcast.net Mon Nov 17 09:50:51 2008 From: gray.andrew at comcast.net (Andrew Gray) Date: Mon Nov 17 09:47:22 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Food at the meeting Message-ID: <1226944251.15171.2.camel@gina> Would anybody be up for bringing one pizza to the meeting? I'd be willing to bring one if others would also be willing to bring one of their own to share. If we got enough people willing to provide one pizza, even just for this month, we might be on to something. --Andrew Gray (Sweetandy) From paul-bartell at ubuntu.com Mon Nov 17 10:58:32 2008 From: paul-bartell at ubuntu.com (Paul Bartell) Date: Mon Nov 17 10:55:27 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Food at the meeting In-Reply-To: <1226944251.15171.2.camel@gina> References: <1226944251.15171.2.camel@gina> Message-ID: <2b5bab0f0811171058s3045cd3fm4f717db749c8671f@mail.gmail.com> anyone know a place in downtown that would be good to buy a pizza at? (I take the bus there usually, so driving it over isint really an option) . If theres an easy to get to place, i'd be willing to get one. On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 9:50 AM, Andrew Gray wrote: > Would anybody be up for bringing one pizza to the meeting? I'd be > willing to bring one if others would also be willing to bring one of > their own to share. If we got enough people willing to provide one > pizza, even just for this month, we might be on to something. > > --Andrew Gray (Sweetandy) > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > -- Random quote of the week/month/whenever i get to updating it: "Opportunity knocked. My doorman threw him out." - Adrienne Gusoff "At school you don't get parole, good behavior only brings a longer sentence." - The History Boys From pencil_pusher at hotmail.com Mon Nov 17 11:18:20 2008 From: pencil_pusher at hotmail.com (David) Date: Mon Nov 17 11:17:43 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Everyone: Please read and share your thoughts onhow to improve GSLUG References: <101346.13587.qm@web53709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: How about a netbook meeting? I know it's not as technical as some would prefer, but they are quite the rage these days and I think it'd be cool to see many in one setting. Especially if we could coordinate beforehand who has what, people wouldn't have to see the same distro on the same netbook multiple times. ----- Original Message ----- From: David To: gslug-general@gslug.org Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 9:33 AM Subject: Re: [Gslug-general] Everyone: Please read and share your thoughts onhow to improve GSLUG As with most groups of humans this size, there are going to be sub-sets of wants. So speaking for myself and perhaps no one else (ha), the GSLUG meetings have value for me in exposing me to new ideas, methods, and app.s. As someone using Linux for 2 years, most everything is new. Not only is using Linux (the shell, scripting, distros, hardware, etc.) still 'new' for me, but so are the applications (WAMP, security stuff, network management, VPN/SSH, etc.). So for me, as a not-all-day user of Linux, there have always been one or two talks, conversations, or ideas per meeting that have been very worthwhile. Often unexpected. I can state this: when people talk about what they LIKE (the 'duplicity' talk a few months ago comes to mind), I always get _something_ out of it. Since I have yet to get to a place where I have something to offer... my 'request' is simply for people to step out and simply talk about what they like, what they just recently came across or figured out, etc. I may not use/employ what is being talked about (ex. again: duplicity), but I DO end up with better solutions than if left to myself. [In the case of duplicity, I had to figure out what if I needed to redo my small network: would setting it up to work well with duplicity make my network better overall? or am I would it be worse? I ended up not using duplicity but my network IS better backed-up and easier to maintain.] Last thing: I've never seen a 'project' done in the context of these meetings - I haven't been around long enough, I suppose. So I am not opposed to them nor for them: I have no idea. My 2 cents, David --- On Mon, 11/17/08, Eric Butler wrote: From: Eric Butler Subject: [Gslug-general] Everyone: Please read and share your thoughts on how to improve GSLUG To: gslug-general@gslug.org Date: Monday, November 17, 2008, 1:18 AM Hello everyone,I'm re-sending this same email with a new subject in case the reason nobodyreplied was because it was lost in the other thread.Although it may seem like a classroom would be a better format, this was neverthe case when we met at NSCC. Since moving downtown, I've tried planningthings to do after the talks (Ubuntu bug day, etc.) but these have nevermaterialized - everyone usually leaves after the talks. That said, I certainlywould like a bigger space.I really encourage everyone to speak up at meetings if they think things aregetting off topic, I can't always tell if everyone is interested inwhat's happening or not. I will try to make a more distinct separationbetween the structured talks and free-formed discussion next month, though, togive people an un-akward opportunity to leave or to start their ownconversations.What sort of interest is there for group projects at future meetings, and whatcan we all do differently to make them actually happen? - Eric_______________________________________________Gslug-general mailing listGslug-general@gslug.orghttp://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Gslug-general mailing list Gslug-general@gslug.org http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081117/29fca898/attachment.htm From andrew.kvalheim at gmail.com Mon Nov 17 11:29:34 2008 From: andrew.kvalheim at gmail.com (Andrew Kvalheim) Date: Mon Nov 17 11:26:30 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Planet GSLUG Message-ID: <152aefdf0811171129t207974c2t2bb7ac00097ee413@mail.gmail.com> What's the status of Planet GSLUG? Are there more contributers besides Eric? http://planet.gslug.org/ -- Andrew From gray.andrew at comcast.net Mon Nov 17 11:31:10 2008 From: gray.andrew at comcast.net (Andrew Gray) Date: Mon Nov 17 11:27:26 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Food at the meeting In-Reply-To: <2b5bab0f0811171058s3045cd3fm4f717db749c8671f@mail.gmail.com> References: <1226944251.15171.2.camel@gina> <2b5bab0f0811171058s3045cd3fm4f717db749c8671f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1226950270.20353.6.camel@gina> Wild Tiger Pizza apparently has great pizzas for cheap (according to a Google review), it's 1326 5th Ave. (Widemile is 1325 4th, so you can't beat the location.) I found a deal online that's 2-for-1 on the pizzas but it's only valid through December 1st :( I think I'm going to go here for my pizza if this goes over well. I'll check out the location and prices tomorrow after school. --Andrew On Mon, 2008-11-17 at 10:58 -0800, Paul Bartell wrote: > anyone know a place in downtown that would be good to buy a pizza at? > (I take the bus there usually, so driving it over isint really an > option) . If theres an easy to get to place, i'd be willing to get > one. > > On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 9:50 AM, Andrew Gray wrote: > > Would anybody be up for bringing one pizza to the meeting? I'd be > > willing to bring one if others would also be willing to bring one of > > their own to share. If we got enough people willing to provide one > > pizza, even just for this month, we might be on to something. > > > > --Andrew Gray (Sweetandy) > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Gslug-general mailing list > > Gslug-general@gslug.org > > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > > > > > From aonoraha at gmail.com Mon Nov 17 11:26:08 2008 From: aonoraha at gmail.com (Aaron Appelbaum) Date: Mon Nov 17 11:29:01 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Food at the meeting In-Reply-To: <2b5bab0f0811171058s3045cd3fm4f717db749c8671f@mail.gmail.com> References: <1226944251.15171.2.camel@gina> <2b5bab0f0811171058s3045cd3fm4f717db749c8671f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <90312f880811171126p48c372eav9eedb826f8def704@mail.gmail.com> A pizza place is opening at 6th and Union. I am not sure of the name, but it may be worth considering. On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 10:58 AM, Paul Bartell wrote: > anyone know a place in downtown that would be good to buy a pizza at? > (I take the bus there usually, so driving it over isint really an > option) . If theres an easy to get to place, i'd be willing to get > one. > > On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 9:50 AM, Andrew Gray wrote: >> Would anybody be up for bringing one pizza to the meeting? I'd be >> willing to bring one if others would also be willing to bring one of >> their own to share. If we got enough people willing to provide one >> pizza, even just for this month, we might be on to something. >> >> --Andrew Gray (Sweetandy) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Gslug-general mailing list >> Gslug-general@gslug.org >> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general >> > > > > -- > Random quote of the week/month/whenever i get to updating it: > "Opportunity knocked. My doorman threw him out." - Adrienne Gusoff > > "At school you don't get parole, good behavior only brings a longer > sentence." - The History Boys > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > From ashex at chipnick.com Mon Nov 17 11:33:15 2008 From: ashex at chipnick.com (Ahmed Osman) Date: Mon Nov 17 11:29:44 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Food at the meeting In-Reply-To: <1226950270.20353.6.camel@gina> References: <1226944251.15171.2.camel@gina><2b5bab0f0811171058s3045cd3fm4f717db749c8671f@mail.gmail.com><1226950270.20353.6.camel@gina> Message-ID: <29107306-1226950361-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431509119-@bxe340.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Buy lots of pizzas and freeze them? I would be happy to bring a Couple pizzas with me to meetings. Is there any chance of people pitching in? -ahmed Sent Via Blackberry -----Original Message----- From: Andrew Gray Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 11:31:10 To: Gslug Subject: Re: [Gslug-general] Food at the meeting Wild Tiger Pizza apparently has great pizzas for cheap (according to a Google review), it's 1326 5th Ave. (Widemile is 1325 4th, so you can't beat the location.) I found a deal online that's 2-for-1 on the pizzas but it's only valid through December 1st :( I think I'm going to go here for my pizza if this goes over well. I'll check out the location and prices tomorrow after school. --Andrew On Mon, 2008-11-17 at 10:58 -0800, Paul Bartell wrote: > anyone know a place in downtown that would be good to buy a pizza at? > (I take the bus there usually, so driving it over isint really an > option) . If theres an easy to get to place, i'd be willing to get > one. > > On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 9:50 AM, Andrew Gray wrote: > > Would anybody be up for bringing one pizza to the meeting? I'd be > > willing to bring one if others would also be willing to bring one of > > their own to share. If we got enough people willing to provide one > > pizza, even just for this month, we might be on to something. > > > > --Andrew Gray (Sweetandy) > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Gslug-general mailing list > > Gslug-general@gslug.org > > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > > > > > _______________________________________________ Gslug-general mailing list Gslug-general@gslug.org http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general From pencil_pusher at hotmail.com Mon Nov 17 11:43:20 2008 From: pencil_pusher at hotmail.com (David) Date: Mon Nov 17 11:40:20 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Everyone: Please read and share your thoughts onhow to improve GSLUG References: <101346.13587.qm@web53709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <42dedfb00811171131n602e9fbfi93528942a0fcaa99@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: To save some typing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netbook I have an Eee 701 with Ubuntu Eee nbr, and an Aspire One with 8gb ssd and fedora 10 preview. I'm not crazy about fedora, so if anyone else had that running, I'd just as soon return to Ubuntu or the default os it came with. >I think that would be cool. > Frankly I'm not clear on exactly what a "netbook" is though I can sort > of figure it out from context. > I would like to be at a meeting where there were a number of examples > and to check them out. > From btm at loftninjas.org Mon Nov 17 11:49:32 2008 From: btm at loftninjas.org (Bryan McLellan) Date: Mon Nov 17 11:46:28 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Food at the meeting In-Reply-To: <1226950270.20353.6.camel@gina> References: <1226944251.15171.2.camel@gina> <2b5bab0f0811171058s3045cd3fm4f717db749c8671f@mail.gmail.com> <1226950270.20353.6.camel@gina> Message-ID: <893823750811171149ve227ad9j7adb07d772464a03@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 11:31 AM, Andrew Gray wrote: > Wild Tiger Pizza apparently has great pizzas for cheap (according to a > Google review), it's 1326 5th Ave. (Widemile is 1325 4th, so you can't > beat the location.) I found a deal online that's 2-for-1 on the pizzas > but it's only valid through December 1st :( I've never eaten at Wild Tiger. It's in that bizarro underground tunnel under Rainer tower that goes to Union Square. Not sure about the weekend access to this zombie fortress. From aonoraha at gmail.com Mon Nov 17 12:02:57 2008 From: aonoraha at gmail.com (Aaron Appelbaum) Date: Mon Nov 17 11:59:52 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Food at the meeting In-Reply-To: <1226950270.20353.6.camel@gina> References: <1226944251.15171.2.camel@gina> <2b5bab0f0811171058s3045cd3fm4f717db749c8671f@mail.gmail.com> <1226950270.20353.6.camel@gina> Message-ID: <90312f880811171202l16ca2b84t7f9f99d61509766b@mail.gmail.com> There's also a wild tiger in west lake center that's open on the weekends. On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 11:31 AM, Andrew Gray wrote: > Wild Tiger Pizza apparently has great pizzas for cheap (according to a > Google review), it's 1326 5th Ave. (Widemile is 1325 4th, so you can't > beat the location.) I found a deal online that's 2-for-1 on the pizzas > but it's only valid through December 1st :( > > I think I'm going to go here for my pizza if this goes over well. I'll > check out the location and prices tomorrow after school. > > --Andrew > > On Mon, 2008-11-17 at 10:58 -0800, Paul Bartell wrote: >> anyone know a place in downtown that would be good to buy a pizza at? >> (I take the bus there usually, so driving it over isint really an >> option) . If theres an easy to get to place, i'd be willing to get >> one. >> >> On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 9:50 AM, Andrew Gray wrote: >> > Would anybody be up for bringing one pizza to the meeting? I'd be >> > willing to bring one if others would also be willing to bring one of >> > their own to share. If we got enough people willing to provide one >> > pizza, even just for this month, we might be on to something. >> > >> > --Andrew Gray (Sweetandy) >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Gslug-general mailing list >> > Gslug-general@gslug.org >> > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general >> > >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > From mark at foster.cc Mon Nov 17 11:54:57 2008 From: mark at foster.cc (Mark Foster) Date: Mon Nov 17 12:15:12 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Planet GSLUG In-Reply-To: <152aefdf0811171129t207974c2t2bb7ac00097ee413@mail.gmail.com> References: <152aefdf0811171129t207974c2t2bb7ac00097ee413@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4921CC11.3000103@foster.cc> Andrew Kvalheim wrote: > What's the status of Planet GSLUG? Are there more contributers besides Eric? > > http://planet.gslug.org/ > I've asked about this twice in the recent past and was ignored. IIRC I even offered to host it. To whom it may concern (Eric?) - Please add back those that were originally included on Planet GSLUG and any others that request to be there. I think there should also be a link from the wiki and instructions on how to get yourself added. -- Realization #2031: That the "meaning of life" is now just another Google search. Mark D. Foster http://mark.foster.cc/ | http://conshell.net/ From steven_coles at yahoo.com Mon Nov 17 12:25:17 2008 From: steven_coles at yahoo.com (Michael_Faraday) Date: Mon Nov 17 12:22:13 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Linux (Ubuntu?) for Seniors Project? In-Reply-To: <492136CC.7090002@extremeboredom.net> Message-ID: <165859.95540.qm@web36404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> All, A staffer at the North Shore Senior Center in Bothell told me they get many donated desktop computers they cannot use in the center. Some are too old. Some are too much trouble to configure like their existing continuing-education computers. I'm wondering whether anyone wants to look into getting some going with a non-geeky Linux for low-income seniors. Your thoughts? Steven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081117/7324d718/attachment.html From paul-bartell at ubuntu.com Mon Nov 17 13:23:06 2008 From: paul-bartell at ubuntu.com (Paul Bartell) Date: Mon Nov 17 13:25:21 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Linux (Ubuntu?) for Seniors Project? In-Reply-To: <165859.95540.qm@web36404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <492136CC.7090002@extremeboredom.net> <165859.95540.qm@web36404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2b5bab0f0811171323y35800b8eo8a095a303945506f@mail.gmail.com> I'd be willing to do it. Transportation is my only problem. On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 12:25 PM, Michael_Faraday wrote: > All, > > A staffer at the North Shore Senior Center in Bothell told me they get many > donated desktop computers they cannot use in the center. Some are too old. > Some are too much trouble to configure like their existing > continuing-education computers. > > I'm wondering whether anyone wants to look into getting some going with a > non-geeky Linux for low-income seniors. Your thoughts? > > Steven > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > -- Random quote of the week/month/whenever i get to updating it: "Opportunity knocked. My doorman threw him out." - Adrienne Gusoff "At school you don't get parole, good behavior only brings a longer sentence." - The History Boys From sjbenner at gmail.com Mon Nov 17 13:43:18 2008 From: sjbenner at gmail.com (Josh Benner) Date: Mon Nov 17 13:40:14 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Linux (Ubuntu?) for Seniors Project? In-Reply-To: <2b5bab0f0811171323y35800b8eo8a095a303945506f@mail.gmail.com> References: <492136CC.7090002@extremeboredom.net> <165859.95540.qm@web36404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <2b5bab0f0811171323y35800b8eo8a095a303945506f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1b044f780811171343w27176fffve41ba185180f9ec1@mail.gmail.com> I'm interested and can help with transportation. On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 1:23 PM, Paul Bartell wrote: > I'd be willing to do it. Transportation is my only problem. > > On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 12:25 PM, Michael_Faraday > wrote: > > All, > > > > A staffer at the North Shore Senior Center in Bothell told me they get > many > > donated desktop computers they cannot use in the center. Some are too > old. > > Some are too much trouble to configure like their existing > > continuing-education computers. > > > > I'm wondering whether anyone wants to look into getting some going with a > > non-geeky Linux for low-income seniors. Your thoughts? > > > > Steven > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Gslug-general mailing list > > Gslug-general@gslug.org > > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > > > > > > -- > Random quote of the week/month/whenever i get to updating it: > "Opportunity knocked. My doorman threw him out." - Adrienne Gusoff > > "At school you don't get parole, good behavior only brings a longer > sentence." - The History Boys > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081117/687ab036/attachment.htm From pencil_pusher at hotmail.com Mon Nov 17 13:55:26 2008 From: pencil_pusher at hotmail.com (David) Date: Mon Nov 17 13:52:46 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Linux (Ubuntu?) for Seniors Project? References: <492136CC.7090002@extremeboredom.net><165859.95540.qm@web36404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <2b5bab0f0811171323y35800b8eo8a095a303945506f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I just sent an email to my local senior center inquiring about such needs. It's a great idea. As far as transportation, if you can't bring the box home, perhaps you could go to the box? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Bartell" To: Cc: Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 1:23 PM Subject: Re: [Gslug-general] Linux (Ubuntu?) for Seniors Project? > I'd be willing to do it. Transportation is my only problem. > > On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 12:25 PM, Michael_Faraday > wrote: >> All, >> >> A staffer at the North Shore Senior Center in Bothell told me they get >> many >> donated desktop computers they cannot use in the center. Some are too >> old. >> Some are too much trouble to configure like their existing >> continuing-education computers. >> >> I'm wondering whether anyone wants to look into getting some going with a >> non-geeky Linux for low-income seniors. Your thoughts? >> >> Steven >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Gslug-general mailing list >> Gslug-general@gslug.org >> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general >> > > > > -- > Random quote of the week/month/whenever i get to updating it: > "Opportunity knocked. My doorman threw him out." - Adrienne Gusoff > > "At school you don't get parole, good behavior only brings a longer > sentence." - The History Boys > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > From brando.fouts at gmail.com Mon Nov 17 13:57:36 2008 From: brando.fouts at gmail.com (Brandon Fouts) Date: Mon Nov 17 14:02:55 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] wireless - Portland style Message-ID: <609b18560811171357x5e836f9bp9ae0f597b54f3b7@mail.gmail.com> I don't know if they are building any faster, but I think the difference is - They basically want all wi-fi users to leave their access point open, so anyone can use. http://www.personaltelco.net/ I haven't read enough to know if they are doing any thing special for security - I guess that would be up to the Access Point owner. (Is a local wi-fi user more dangerous than the million of other users on the internet? I doubt it. Perhaps someone on this list has more knowledge of personaltelco.net? -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= www.psnug.org Puget Sound Network Users Group e Building Technical Skills Through Teamwork And Education. Helping members realize Open Standards and investigate Open Source. _____________________ PSNUG dues/food $35 per year -21st anniversary coffee mug that you can pickup at any meeting - no we don't ship. pay at monthly meeting or send checks payable to: PSNUG PSNUG c/o Brandon Fouts 9549a Olympus Beach Rd NE Bainbridge Island, WA 98110-3446 ==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081117/a16f9d3a/attachment.html From crash at neg9.org Mon Nov 17 14:14:31 2008 From: crash at neg9.org (Ian Gallagher) Date: Mon Nov 17 14:11:29 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] wireless - Portland style In-Reply-To: <609b18560811171357x5e836f9bp9ae0f597b54f3b7@mail.gmail.com> References: <609b18560811171357x5e836f9bp9ae0f597b54f3b7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b5c15340811171414x3846dc4bt24d0bda7c4875b82@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 13:57, Brandon Fouts wrote: > > (Is a local wi-fi user more dangerous than the million of other users on > the internet? I doubt it. > Yes, they certainly can be - think about it, your router typically will block everything from the internet inbound to your computers behind it, but if someone is on your access point and it's more or less out-of-the-box configuration, they now have direct access to your machines behind the router. Of course, we see more attacks on users via the internet (cross-site scripting, other client side vulnerabilities) that don't rely on directed attacks anyways. Also, someone on your local access point could do more interesting network level attacks on your network than they usually could via the internet, such as ARP poisoning for man in the middle attacks, sniffing your traffic, etc. As far as what PersonalTelco does about this, I'm not too sure - check out their website more to find out. Maybe we could organize a Seattlewireless talk at GSLUG sometime if people are interested. If we can pull some of them away from their beer and such =] -Ian Gallagher -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081117/aef9a7ff/attachment.htm From btm at loftninjas.org Mon Nov 17 14:19:21 2008 From: btm at loftninjas.org (Bryan McLellan) Date: Mon Nov 17 14:16:20 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] wireless - Portland style In-Reply-To: <609b18560811171357x5e836f9bp9ae0f597b54f3b7@mail.gmail.com> References: <609b18560811171357x5e836f9bp9ae0f597b54f3b7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <893823750811171419y8036eb7o225e1e890374f4a8@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 1:57 PM, Brandon Fouts wrote: > I don't know if they are building any faster, but I think the difference is > http://www.personaltelco.net/ Lots of open wireless access points may be convenient overall, but it's still unorganized. The coolest thing about ptp is that they've gotten some grants to provide open wireless access in some areas [1]. Having a ton of nodes is the first step to actually building a network, which when built has many cooler options for projects than just Internet access. If you're interested in wireless you should mark yourself on the map [2], get at least an NS2 [3] or something cheap and give out interest access. Then start talking to anyone on the map near you about creating a link between the two of you. This experience will help when learning how to build out into a larger multi-node network > Perhaps someone on this list has more knowledge of personaltelco.net? I've done personal research. On the whole, they drink less beer than us, but individually they have strong contenders in this category. Bryan [1] http://wiki.personaltelco.net/MississippiGrantProject [2] http://map.seattlewireless.net/ [3] http://metrix.net/ubiquiti-nanostation-2-ns2-p-110.html From technoshaman at liawol.org Mon Nov 17 14:19:32 2008 From: technoshaman at liawol.org (Glenn Stone) Date: Mon Nov 17 14:16:34 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] wireless - Portland style In-Reply-To: <4b5c15340811171414x3846dc4bt24d0bda7c4875b82@mail.gmail.com> References: <609b18560811171357x5e836f9bp9ae0f597b54f3b7@mail.gmail.com> <4b5c15340811171414x3846dc4bt24d0bda7c4875b82@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081117221932.GI28424@liawol.org> On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 02:14:31PM -0800, Ian Gallagher wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 13:57, Brandon Fouts > <[1]brando.fouts@gmail.com> wrote: > > (Is a local wi-fi user more dangerous than the million of other > users on the internet? I doubt it. > > Yes, they certainly can be - think about it, your router typically > will block everything from the internet inbound to your computers > behind it, but if someone is on your access point and it's more or > less out-of-the-box configuration, they now have direct access to your > machines behind the router. Of course, we see more attacks on users > via the internet (cross-site scripting, other client side > vulnerabilities) that don't rely on directed attacks anyways. > Also, someone on your local access point could do more interesting > network level attacks on your network than they usually could via the > internet, such as ARP poisoning for man in the middle attacks, > sniffing your traffic, etc. DMZ, anyone? Most smart-routers these days will do such things. I know the WRT54GL will, and the 2Wire box that Qwest puts out... if not, you could put the wifi box in a DMZ off any Linux host. A bazillion different ways to do it depending.... -- Glenn From eric at extremeboredom.net Mon Nov 17 14:20:04 2008 From: eric at extremeboredom.net (Eric Butler) Date: Mon Nov 17 14:16:58 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Planet GSLUG In-Reply-To: <4921CC11.3000103@foster.cc> References: <4921CC11.3000103@foster.cc> Message-ID: <785873a7e7b9385243240fe0da919241@localhost> I'm sorry that you were ignored, this was unintentional. If anyone would like to be added to the planet, come find me at next month's meeting. I'd be happy to add you. - Eric On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 11:54:57 -0800, Mark Foster wrote: > > Andrew Kvalheim wrote: >> What's the status of Planet GSLUG? Are there more contributers besides > Eric? >> >> http://planet.gslug.org/ >> > I've asked about this twice in the recent past and was ignored. IIRC I > even offered to host it. > > To whom it may concern (Eric?) - > Please add back those that were originally included on Planet GSLUG and > any others that request to be there. > I think there should also be a link from the wiki and instructions on > how to get yourself added. > > -- > Realization #2031: That the "meaning of life" is now just another Google > search. > Mark D. Foster > http://mark.foster.cc/ | http://conshell.net/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general From jamesthefishy at gmail.com Mon Nov 17 14:53:59 2008 From: jamesthefishy at gmail.com (james michael) Date: Mon Nov 17 14:50:29 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Community Projects. In-Reply-To: References: <492136CC.7090002@extremeboredom.net><165859.95540.qm@web36404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <2b5bab0f0811171323y35800b8eo8a095a303945506f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4921F607.2060209@gmail.com> I saw the senior project email and was encouraged to tell everyone about a place called interconnections which repairs old computers for reuse in 3rd world countries as well as recycles them. It's been about a year since I last visited there but I believe they still take volunteers and pay them via a free decent head-less computer system. I thought it would be nice to organize a group to go down there for a while, repair and recycle as may computers as possible. I would also suggest donating the computer system that you earn but it would be up to each individual. It's just a nice way to say thanks to the greater Seattle community, Everything helps, specially around the holidays. p.s. anyone going to the big tree and getting a name, my family might not give gifts to each other and just pick out one or two people and get everything on their list, This is also a good idea for people who like doing this stuff. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jamesthefishy.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 127 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081117/74d87772/jamesthefishy.vcf From crash at neg9.org Mon Nov 17 15:08:54 2008 From: crash at neg9.org (Ian Gallagher) Date: Mon Nov 17 15:05:51 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] wireless - Portland style In-Reply-To: <609b18560811171446n5a8f148fv86f5816a5c49ce07@mail.gmail.com> References: <609b18560811171357x5e836f9bp9ae0f597b54f3b7@mail.gmail.com> <4b5c15340811171414ldce367fu2313014e7dfe121a@mail.gmail.com> <609b18560811171446n5a8f148fv86f5816a5c49ce07@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b5c15340811171508j2bd2865fw26e9f45ee5d94737@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 14:46, Brandon Fouts wrote: > > > On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 2:14 PM, Ian Gallagher wrote: > >> On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 13:57, Brandon Fouts wrote: >> >>> >>> (Is a local wi-fi user more dangerous than the million of other users on >>> the internet? I doubt it. >>> >> >> Yes, they certainly can be >> > Well, the couple of dozen people in my neighborhood? I don't think so. And > my host has a firewall too and I don't have my host on, unless I'm using it > - you get what I'm driving at? > Sure, if you don't present assets of interest then there won't be anyone to go after them, same if those assets aren't interesting to those who have access to them, if you want to look at it that way. Also, theres the whole idea of "defense in depth" or a "layered approach to security", from the internet perspective you've got your router and it's firewall or ACL stuff, then your desktop's firewall and AV/etc/etc, remove that router firewall/acl layer and it's just one less thing an attacker has to pound at. It's not the best scenario, but imagine that ipfilter or the windows firewall had a bug in it that allowed it to be bypassed, then a local attacker could leverage that whereas they probably couldn't if they had the router in the way. > > - think about it, your router typically will block everything from the >> internet inbound to your computers behind it, but if someone is on your >> access point and it's more or less out-of-the-box configuration, they now >> have direct access to your machines behind the router. >> > Well, perhaps those reading this list could gain access, but them you'd > have to come to my house and you probably won't bother - ferry costs money > ;-) > There's weird people out there ;] Again, you drive home what you and I just said above I guess. > > > > > >> Of course, we see more attacks on users via the internet (cross-site >> scripting, other client side vulnerabilities) that don't rely on directed >> attacks anyways. >> > That's what I'm talking about > >> >> Also, someone on your local access point could do more interesting network >> level attacks on your network than they usually could via the internet, such >> as ARP poisoning for man in the middle attacks, sniffing your traffic, etc. >> > Well, i have many other reasons for not doing on-line banking - you think > my security is bad? You should check out a bank running windows - recent > events show just how smart those finance guys are - as in smart at stealing > money, not protecting it. Damn can you believe how much they are taking? And > I thought the Iraq war was profittable - direct access to the Treasury - now > you're talking real money. > Yup.. your banking may not be the scariest thing, we seem to have at least gotten reasonable end to end security going for that sort of thing (properly configured SSL, and your browsers make it a reasonably painful experience for you to go to a site with a badly configured SSL certificate now-a-days) There's plenty more subtle things that could be leaked though, such as your email - not everyone realizes that you have to make an effort to force GMail to use SSL throughout your session for example, instead of only during authentication. > > >> >> As far as what PersonalTelco does about this, I'm not too sure - check out >> their website more to find out. >> > What did I do with that URL? oh yeh, I see it - just ribbing you a > little.... > I have been meaning to see if: openWRT - and similar offerings > would allow a differnet subnet for my "wired" machines - and leave the > wireless access to a another subnet - and not route between the two > subnets...so many ideas, so little time. > Certainly, as Glenn mentioned previously you can setup a DMZ for an open wireless network and that's not a half bad way to do things. Certaily you can do this with OpenWRT/dd/...etc or a *nix box. Again, not a bad way to go - defense in depth and priviledge seperation! Hooray! :) > > >> Maybe we could organize a Seattlewireless talk at GSLUG sometime if people >> are interested. If we can pull some of them away from their beer and such =] >> >> > > Perhaps the seattlewireless guys have also considered these security ideas > ?? > thanks Ian, for your comments. > Seattlewireless is a bit different, the goal there is to create an independant network from the Internet that can exist only with community support and not rely on commercial dependancies or other infrastructure. Most of the people who participate in the SWN network are fairly security concious as well, though. Thanks for the conversation! > >> >> >> -Ian Gallagher >> > > > > -- > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > www.psnug.org > Puget Sound Network Users Group > > Building Technical Skills Through Teamwork And Education. > Helping members realize Open Standards and investigate Open Source. > _____________________ > PSNUG dues/food $35 per year -21st anniversary coffee mug > that you can pickup at any meeting - no we don't ship. > pay at monthly meeting or send checks payable to: PSNUG > > PSNUG > c/o Brandon Fouts > 9549a Olympus Beach Rd NE > Bainbridge Island, WA 98110-3446 > ==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-== > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081117/c9ef4e8f/attachment.htm From paul-bartell at ubuntu.com Mon Nov 17 15:50:04 2008 From: paul-bartell at ubuntu.com (Paul Bartell) Date: Mon Nov 17 15:47:00 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Linux (Ubuntu?) for Seniors Project? In-Reply-To: References: <492136CC.7090002@extremeboredom.net> <165859.95540.qm@web36404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <2b5bab0f0811171323y35800b8eo8a095a303945506f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2b5bab0f0811171550h76dda359jc4f225be091e29e@mail.gmail.com> perhaps a good idea would be to PXE boot install these computers... On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 1:55 PM, David wrote: > I just sent an email to my local senior center inquiring about such needs. > It's a great idea. As far as transportation, if you can't bring the box > home, perhaps you could go to the box? > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Bartell" > To: > Cc: > Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 1:23 PM > Subject: Re: [Gslug-general] Linux (Ubuntu?) for Seniors Project? > > >> I'd be willing to do it. Transportation is my only problem. >> >> On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 12:25 PM, Michael_Faraday >> wrote: >>> >>> All, >>> >>> A staffer at the North Shore Senior Center in Bothell told me they get >>> many >>> donated desktop computers they cannot use in the center. Some are too >>> old. >>> Some are too much trouble to configure like their existing >>> continuing-education computers. >>> >>> I'm wondering whether anyone wants to look into getting some going with a >>> non-geeky Linux for low-income seniors. Your thoughts? >>> >>> Steven >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Gslug-general mailing list >>> Gslug-general@gslug.org >>> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Random quote of the week/month/whenever i get to updating it: >> "Opportunity knocked. My doorman threw him out." - Adrienne Gusoff >> >> "At school you don't get parole, good behavior only brings a longer >> sentence." - The History Boys >> _______________________________________________ >> Gslug-general mailing list >> Gslug-general@gslug.org >> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general >> > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > -- Random quote of the week/month/whenever i get to updating it: "Opportunity knocked. My doorman threw him out." - Adrienne Gusoff "At school you don't get parole, good behavior only brings a longer sentence." - The History Boys From kmeyer at blarg.net Mon Nov 17 15:34:56 2008 From: kmeyer at blarg.net (Ken Meyer) Date: Mon Nov 17 16:03:26 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Linux (Ubuntu?) for Seniors Project? In-Reply-To: <165859.95540.qm@web36404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I think that this is a great idea. Hoping not to appear to be, or create the effect of, a "wet blanket", I only wish to call your attention to the fact that this is not a "install and forget" activity. There was, in fact, a volunteer effort to install Linux at the Green Lake Senior Center, at least on their server, and it required a lot of effort before I believe the whole thing was scrapped to install Windows when the Center got some grant or other. Although it may be possible for those acquainted with Windows to transition without too much help, many of those who will be interested will not be clueful at all, and I can assure you from personal experience that these people often have little patience and expect the box to voluntarily do back-flips for them, having perhaps been oversold about the magic of computers or just being legitimately old-age cranky. One will have all sorts of exasperated calls about both legit crashes and misconceptions about how the computers operate. The library and many technology centers provide classes, but I doubt whether those people know much about Linux. There are also other organizations that already refurb computers for these purposes, but I don't know what they do about providing an O/S that is equally affordable as a refurbed machine. I know that M$ at one time was giving these organizations a hard time about re-installing Windows, even if the machine came from the original owner with a legit copy installed. Perhaps they have relented on that subject. I would recommend that the group do some serious research into partnerships with the refurbers and try to learn about how similar programs elsewhere have fared, successful or not or just getting advice. Again, I think that this is a most worthy endeavor, but please do not go into it naively. If people are left in the lurch with a Linux machine that frustrates them, even if they have totally unrealistic expectations, or do not have two functioning brain cells to rub together, it will become a black mark for Linux. Ken M. -----Original Message----- From: gslug-general-bounces@gslug.org [mailto:gslug-general-bounces@gslug.org] On Behalf Of Michael_Faraday Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 12:25 PM To: Gslug-general@gslug.org Subject: [Gslug-general] Linux (Ubuntu?) for Seniors Project? All, A staffer at the North Shore Senior Center in Bothell told me they get many donated desktop computers they cannot use in the center. Some are too old. Some are too much trouble to configure like their existing continuing-education computers. I'm wondering whether anyone wants to look into getting some going with a non-geeky Linux for low-income seniors. Your thoughts? Steven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081117/c4be22b6/attachment.html From paul-bartell at ubuntu.com Mon Nov 17 16:12:13 2008 From: paul-bartell at ubuntu.com (Paul Bartell) Date: Mon Nov 17 16:09:09 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Linux (Ubuntu?) for Seniors Project? In-Reply-To: References: <165859.95540.qm@web36404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2b5bab0f0811171612s3d25c0d9q4a5f23a1e4b26d17@mail.gmail.com> I think that putting moblin or a similiar dumbed down interface on the computers would be better. Make it so simple, that they dont need at teacher and can learn on their own. Or better yet, make a curriculum, or use the ubuntu desktop training course (or a modified version without the unneeded things) On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 3:34 PM, Ken Meyer wrote: > I think that this is a great idea. Hoping not to appear to be, or create > the effect of, a "wet blanket", I only wish to call your attention to the > fact that this is not a "install and forget" activity. There was, in fact, > a volunteer effort to install Linux at the Green Lake Senior Center, at > least on their server, and it required a lot of effort before I believe the > whole thing was scrapped to install Windows when the Center got some grant > or other. > > Although it may be possible for those acquainted with Windows to transition > without too much help, many of those who will be interested will not be > clueful at all, and I can assure you from personal experience that these > people often have little patience and expect the box to voluntarily do > back-flips for them, having perhaps been oversold about the magic of > computers or just being legitimately old-age cranky. One will have all > sorts of exasperated calls about both legit crashes and misconceptions about > how the computers operate. > > The library and many technology centers provide classes, but I doubt whether > those people know much about Linux. > > There are also other organizations that already refurb computers for these > purposes, but I don't know what they do about providing an O/S that is > equally affordable as a refurbed machine. I know that M$ at one time was > giving these organizations a hard time about re-installing Windows, even if > the machine came from the original owner with a legit copy installed. > Perhaps they have relented on that subject. > > I would recommend that the group do some serious research into partnerships > with the refurbers and try to learn about how similar programs elsewhere > have fared, successful or not or just getting advice. > > Again, I think that this is a most worthy endeavor, but please do not go > into it naively. If people are left in the lurch with a Linux machine that > frustrates them, even if they have totally unrealistic expectations, or do > not have two functioning brain cells to rub together, it will become a black > mark for Linux. > > Ken M. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: gslug-general-bounces@gslug.org > [mailto:gslug-general-bounces@gslug.org] > On Behalf Of Michael_Faraday > Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 12:25 PM > To: Gslug-general@gslug.org > > Subject: [Gslug-general] Linux (Ubuntu?) for Seniors Project? > All, > > A staffer at the North Shore Senior Center in Bothell told me they get many > donated desktop computers they cannot use in the center. Some are too old. > Some are too much trouble to configure like their existing > continuing-education computers. > > I'm wondering whether anyone wants to look into getting some going with a > non-geeky Linux for low-income seniors. Your thoughts? > > Steven > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > -- Random quote of the week/month/whenever i get to updating it: "Opportunity knocked. My doorman threw him out." - Adrienne Gusoff "At school you don't get parole, good behavior only brings a longer sentence." - The History Boys From lee at colleton.net Mon Nov 17 16:23:37 2008 From: lee at colleton.net (Lee Colleton) Date: Mon Nov 17 16:20:35 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] wireless - Portland style In-Reply-To: <4b5c15340811171508j2bd2865fw26e9f45ee5d94737@mail.gmail.com> References: <609b18560811171357x5e836f9bp9ae0f597b54f3b7@mail.gmail.com> <4b5c15340811171414ldce367fu2313014e7dfe121a@mail.gmail.com> <609b18560811171446n5a8f148fv86f5816a5c49ce07@mail.gmail.com> <4b5c15340811171508j2bd2865fw26e9f45ee5d94737@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <59c88c4d0811171623v61a7c7dfhc2c1ff6e2fc6e1bf@mail.gmail.com> The Fonera solves this open access problem with two SSIDs; One can be encrypted for private use with the other left open for the public. DD-WRT also supports multiple SSIDs according to this forum. I should try setting that up some time... --Lee On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 3:08 PM, Ian Gallagher wrote: > On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 14:46, Brandon Fouts wrote: > >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 2:14 PM, Ian Gallagher wrote: >> >>> On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 13:57, Brandon Fouts wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> (Is a local wi-fi user more dangerous than the million of other users on >>>> the internet? I doubt it. >>>> >>> >>> Yes, they certainly can be >>> >> Well, the couple of dozen people in my neighborhood? I don't think so. And >> my host has a firewall too and I don't have my host on, unless I'm using it >> - you get what I'm driving at? >> > > Sure, if you don't present assets of interest then there won't be anyone to > go after them, same if those assets aren't interesting to those who have > access to them, if you want to look at it that way. > Also, theres the whole idea of "defense in depth" or a "layered approach to > security", from the internet perspective you've got your router and it's > firewall or ACL stuff, then your desktop's firewall and AV/etc/etc, remove > that router firewall/acl layer and it's just one less thing an attacker has > to pound at. It's not the best scenario, but imagine that ipfilter or the > windows firewall had a bug in it that allowed it to be bypassed, then a > local attacker could leverage that whereas they probably couldn't if they > had the router in the way. > > > >> >> - think about it, your router typically will block everything from the >>> internet inbound to your computers behind it, but if someone is on your >>> access point and it's more or less out-of-the-box configuration, they now >>> have direct access to your machines behind the router. >>> >> Well, perhaps those reading this list could gain access, but them you'd >> have to come to my house and you probably won't bother - ferry costs money >> ;-) >> > > There's weird people out there ;] Again, you drive home what you and I just > said above I guess. > > >> >> >> > >> >> >>> Of course, we see more attacks on users via the internet (cross-site >>> scripting, other client side vulnerabilities) that don't rely on directed >>> attacks anyways. >>> >> That's what I'm talking about >> >>> >>> Also, someone on your local access point could do more interesting >>> network level attacks on your network than they usually could via the >>> internet, such as ARP poisoning for man in the middle attacks, sniffing your >>> traffic, etc. >>> >> Well, i have many other reasons for not doing on-line banking - you think >> my security is bad? You should check out a bank running windows - recent >> events show just how smart those finance guys are - as in smart at stealing >> money, not protecting it. Damn can you believe how much they are taking? And >> I thought the Iraq war was profittable - direct access to the Treasury - now >> you're talking real money. >> > > Yup.. your banking may not be the scariest thing, we seem to have at least > gotten reasonable end to end security going for that sort of thing (properly > configured SSL, and your browsers make it a reasonably painful experience > for you to go to a site with a badly configured SSL certificate now-a-days) > There's plenty more subtle things that could be leaked though, such as your > email - not everyone realizes that you have to make an effort to force GMail > to use SSL throughout your session for example, instead of only during > authentication. > > > >> >> >>> >>> As far as what PersonalTelco does about this, I'm not too sure - check >>> out their website more to find out. >>> >> What did I do with that URL? oh yeh, I see it - just ribbing you a >> little.... >> I have been meaning to see if: openWRT - and similar offerings >> would allow a differnet subnet for my "wired" machines - and leave the >> wireless access to a another subnet - and not route between the two >> subnets...so many ideas, so little time. >> > > Certainly, as Glenn mentioned previously you can setup a DMZ for an open > wireless network and that's not a half bad way to do things. Certaily you > can do this with OpenWRT/dd/...etc or a *nix box. Again, not a bad way to go > - defense in depth and priviledge seperation! Hooray! :) > > >> >> >>> Maybe we could organize a Seattlewireless talk at GSLUG sometime if >>> people are interested. If we can pull some of them away from their beer and >>> such =] >>> >> >> Perhaps the seattlewireless guys have also considered these security ideas >> ?? >> thanks Ian, for your comments. >> > > Seattlewireless is a bit different, the goal there is to create an > independant network from the Internet that can exist only with community > support and not rely on commercial dependancies or other infrastructure. > Most of the people who participate in the SWN network are fairly security > concious as well, though. > > Thanks for the conversation! > > >> >>> >>> >>> -Ian Gallagher >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= >> www.psnug.org >> Puget Sound Network Users Group >> >> Building Technical Skills Through Teamwork And Education. >> Helping members realize Open Standards and investigate Open Source. >> _____________________ >> PSNUG dues/food $35 per year -21st anniversary coffee mug >> that you can pickup at any meeting - no we don't ship. >> pay at monthly meeting or send checks payable to: PSNUG >> >> PSNUG >> c/o Brandon Fouts >> 9549a Olympus Beach Rd NE >> Bainbridge Island, WA 98110-3446 >> ==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-== >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081117/251f5415/attachment.htm From kmeyer at blarg.net Mon Nov 17 16:40:18 2008 From: kmeyer at blarg.net (Ken Meyer) Date: Mon Nov 17 16:37:10 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Re: November 8th Meeting at Widemile In-Reply-To: <491B2C09.8080006@extremeboredom.net> Message-ID: Eric, the allegation that the classroom at NSCC did not fulfill its promise of providing an environment that encourages small group discussions after the main meeting is simply totally incorrect. Applying it to any other potential, similar venue is currently moot, but probably equally incorrect by similarity. As you may recall, the GSLUG meetings at NSCC traditionally began at 10 AM, and the formal part was over between 12:00 and 1:00. For several years, I was the "First Assistant to the Chief Organizer", who was Wes Cole and then Brian Hatch, and then I became the default "Chief Organizer" myself, as well as being the interface to NSCC's Business Office and to the school's Linux instruction program for the entire period that we met at NSCC. I stayed until the bitter end of virtually every meeting to ensure that the room was left in better order than we even found it, so that there could be no justifiable petty complaint lodged against our use of it (and frankly, also to remove the evidence that we were eating there, which is technically not allowed in the classrooms, albeit the prohibition is universally ignored, even in classes that the school offers itself). Often, I had to reluctantly nudge people out who were still in conversation at 4:00 PM. Less often, there were still people doing troubleshooting or installing a system at that time, and I tried to wait them out, whatever it took. During the formal part of the meeting, we asked people to state their needs for assistance, and we tried to match them with experts in attendance (before they could slip away when the meeting broke up :-) I don't recall any instance in which there were no takers, and the rate of satisfaction with the results was higher than I would have guessed. Furthermore, as you well know, that room has good capabilities for workshop set-up, including an elevator from a close-in parking to facilitate bringing up desk-top computers with CRT monster displays. The classroom also had distributed network access and power connections, sturdy tables, etc. In years of attending many SIGs and UGs, I have never seen the equal of that venue, which is why I grudgingly advocated paying NSCC for the use, and resented it, particularly given the effort I put into involving students in the Linux classes. I have attended many meetings (e.g. SeaSLUG, the Unix user group) in executive conference rooms at corporate establishments, and all were only marginally acceptable, even for groups that were not likely to exceed a dozen attendees. I have attended others in auditorium type settings (e.g. SPUG, SeaJUG) which were so large that even a bigger group just rattled around in them and diminished any sense of community. Of course, none of these venues had decent facilities for providing help or instruction. I have always been proud to say that, of all these SIGs and User Groups, only the Linux ones (GSLUG, TacLUG, KPLUG) ever provided help and hands-on instruction. It would be a great thing to pursue, but it certainly won't happen without the facilities that support it well. I don't know why even just after-meeting chats are not more prevalent now. One speculation: The meetings were moved from a 10:00 AM to a Noon-time start. Placed in the center of the day, some attendees may be scrambling to get some weekend chores done in the shorter time available after the meetings. Ian moved the start time even though the majority of respondents to a survey previously taken preferred the 10 AM time. Well, the people willing to do the work get that prerogative, but it just MIGHT have been counter-productive for after-meeting activities. Perhaps it's associated with the theory that "clientele" attracted by a steady diet of "lightning talks" is less inclined to discuss them further, either because they are expert enough to feel that they have it under control, or because they are newbies and are totally overwhelmed and reluctant to ask questions that may be considered to be "dumb". Hands-on activities are pretty difficult in current venues as well. It's good that you are searching for an answer; seems that you will have to have a captive audience at the meetings before you can elicit significant response. Ken Meyer -----Original Message----- From: gslug-general-bounces@gslug.org [mailto:gslug-general-bounces@gslug.org] On Behalf Of Eric Butler Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 11:19 AM To: Jeremiah T. Gray Cc: gslug-general@gslug.org Subject: Re: [Gslug-general] Re: November 8th Meeting at Widemile Although it may seem like a classroom would be a better format, this was never the case when we met at NSCC. Since moving downtown, I've tried planning things to do after the talks (Ubuntu bug day, etc.) but these have never materialized - everyone usually leaves after the talks. That said, I certainly would like a bigger space. I really encourage everyone to speak up at meetings if they think things are getting off topic, I can't always tell if everyone is interested in what's happening or not. I will try to make a more distinct separation between the structured talks and free-formed discussion next month, though, to give people an un-akward opportunity to leave or to start their own conversations. What sort of interest is there for group projects at future meetings, and what can we all do differently to make them actually happen? - Eric Jeremiah T. Gray wrote: > I concur with Andrew in this, but I blame it on the room; the > conference room format combined with such high turnout made it > impractical to move around and talk with other folks. The old CC > classroom was perfect for smaller group subsets, but this last venue > just wouldn't work for that unless no more than a dozen people showed > imho. Of course, I'm grateful to anyone who will offer shelter to a > bunch of Linux geeks, so what're you gonna do? > > On a mostly unrelated note, would anyone like to get together > separately to discuss tactics for expanding Linux-based curriculums > into various educational settings? We've discussed it some on the > list, but the threads tend to become hypothetical musings. I'd like > to talk very specifically and comprehensively about where courses of > all levels are being offered, what the curriculums and fee structures > are, and whether we can help reinforce existing efforts or start > entirely new ones. > > This is an area of personal interest and focus for me, and I'm not > trying to co-opt GSLUG or form another organization; I just want to > connect people who may be working on this sort of stuff on their own > in order to coordinate a better strategy for making a better > educational pipeline. > > Some topics/goals might include: > * How to best establish relationships with decision-makers at > schools who can introduce Linux-based operating systems > * Determining how to get Linux training programs to youth and/or > vocational centers > * Creating a comprehensive list of places currently offering > Linux-based educational programs and what they teach > * Communicating with businesses that use Linux to determine what > their needs and expectations are from applicants > > I'd also be interested in working with small businesses and their > trade groups to get Linux-based systems into places where it would be > a practical alternative, but that seems like something for Phase 2. > > Jeremiah > > > On Nov 10, 2008, at 1:38 PM, Andrew Gray wrote: > >> I think the meeting went well. The location was nice, in my opinion, and >> had a great view. Seating was limited, but then again, it was also >> limited at Speakeasy, but we managed all right. I had a window sill >> seat, which was actually pretty comfortable. However, the limited >> seating isn't exactly a bad sign; it's great to see so many people >> interested in the GSLUG. >> >> One note about the meeting was that after the lightning talks, >> particularly toward the end, the questions got rather off-topic and bled >> into the free forum time, with only a couple of people going off on >> tangents that didn't apply to most people in the room. People can reply >> to this message and say that they were genuinely interested in those >> discussions, but what I'm saying is that they didn't have to do with the >> lightning talk itself. I would have much preferred to be able to go >> around to the individual lightning talkers and ask questions of them and >> learn more about what they were saying rather than wait a rather lengthy >> amount of time for others to finish their flame wars. >> >> I've been rather frank in this email, and gslugger friends, please don't >> take offense by this. I'm speaking from what I experienced in my honest >> opinion. You're free to disagree. From steven_coles at yahoo.com Mon Nov 17 17:34:07 2008 From: steven_coles at yahoo.com (Michael_Faraday) Date: Mon Nov 17 17:31:06 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Re: Linux (Ubuntu?) for Seniors Project? References: <165859.95540.qm@web36404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <2b5bab0f0811171612s3d25c0d9q4a5f23a1e4b26d17@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <638870.27278.qm@web36401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> All, Very good discussion going on here. Perhaps I'm a bit over fond of Ubuntu. In the mid 1970s single-board assembly-language computers won my heart. A few years later computers booting into BASIC did the same. Then came windowing systems. Windowing systems first caught my attention at a Bellingham artificial intelligence conference that included a film of windowing work at Xerox PARK. It still used a light pen. The conference also included a CGA War of the Worlds clip?long before Star Wars.) A couple years later a coworker demonstrated her Macintosh at work. The icons seemed completely ambiguous to me. Later, wanting a 16-bit machine ?just because? I bought an Atari 520ST. I bought Small C to use with it. Although I'd never used UNIX, I loved the UNIX Bourne subset shell. But I had trouble navigating through the windows. A few years later I got a Packard-Bell with MS Windows. I still had trouble with Windows. Then came employment with a company using Macintosh, a later MS Windows, and VxWorks OSs. For me the VxWorks shell was heaven and the others hell. I resigned myself to hating all my office tools computing. That's how it remained for over a decade. Late in my 59th year a friend sent me a disk with Ubuntu 5.? Originally, I installed it planning to get a bit better at shell commands. I can't say why, but Gnome immediately enchanted me. I thought of it as a great OS for fogies like me until my eight year old granddaughter visited. I showed her the applications menu in the upper left corner. Away she went. Within twenty minutes she was showing me things I had not discovered. We're not geniuses. Somehow Ubuntu's Gnome simply works well for us. It's easy to forget others may not take to it. PS. I've never been anything close to a computer scientist. The AI conference was just to satisfy curiosity. Thank you, Steven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081117/f2fafe35/attachment.html From travis.eeepc at gmail.com Mon Nov 17 18:12:14 2008 From: travis.eeepc at gmail.com (Travis) Date: Mon Nov 17 18:09:11 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Everyone: Please read and share your thoughtsonhow to improve GSLUG References: <101346.13587.qm@web53709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: David wrote: > How about a netbook meeting? I know it's not as technical as some > would prefer, but they are quite the rage these days and I think it'd > be cool to see many in one setting. Especially if we could > coordinate beforehand who has what, people wouldn't have to see the > same distro on the same netbook multiple times. I have an Eee PC 1000H dualbooting XP and Ubuntu 8.10. Not everything works yet but I'm working on it. -- Travis in Shoreline Washington From travis.eeepc at gmail.com Mon Nov 17 18:25:08 2008 From: travis.eeepc at gmail.com (Travis) Date: Mon Nov 17 18:21:18 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Linux (Ubuntu?) for Seniors Project? References: <165859.95540.qm@web36404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <007D508EB3C94956A350166B57703A31@EeePC> Michael_Faraday wrote: >> All, >> >> >> >> A staffer at the North Shore Senior >> Center in Bothell told me they get many donated desktop computers >> they cannot use in the center. Some are too old. Some are too much >> trouble to configure like their existing continuing-education >> computers. >> >> >> >> I'm wondering whether anyone wants to >> look into getting some going with a non-geeky Linux for low-income >> seniors. Your thoughts? I'm not low income but I am a senior and I can't imagine a senior that is not a real geek getting any use out of a Linux machine. I can help with transportation weekdays during the day. -- Travis in Shoreline Washington From travis.eeepc at gmail.com Mon Nov 17 18:42:43 2008 From: travis.eeepc at gmail.com (Travis) Date: Mon Nov 17 18:38:00 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Linux (Ubuntu?) for Seniors Project? References: <165859.95540.qm@web36404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <2b5bab0f0811171612s3d25c0d9q4a5f23a1e4b26d17@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43EC800FD2B64B7F805730A007207EBE@EeePC> Paul Bartell wrote: > I think that putting moblin or a similiar dumbed down interface on the > computers would be better. Make it so simple, that they dont need at > teacher and can learn on their own. Or better yet, make a curriculum, > or use the ubuntu desktop training course (or a modified version > without the unneeded things) I suggest you do that on a machine you use every day, then forget everything you know and use only that machine for a month. -- Travis in Shoreline Washington From jamesthefishy at gmail.com Mon Nov 17 18:57:54 2008 From: jamesthefishy at gmail.com (james michael) Date: Mon Nov 17 18:54:25 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Everyone: Please read and share your thoughtsonhow to improve GSLUG In-Reply-To: References: <101346.13587.qm@web53709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49222F32.6060702@gmail.com> Travis wrote: > David wrote: >> How about a netbook meeting? I know it's not as technical as some >> would prefer, but they are quite the rage these days and I think it'd >> be cool to see many in one setting. Especially if we could >> coordinate beforehand who has what, people wouldn't have to see the >> same distro on the same netbook multiple times. > > > > I have an Eee PC 1000H dualbooting XP and Ubuntu 8.10. Not > everything works yet but I'm working on it. Meh its a good idea, I'd like to see that more generalized, like a mobile device meeting... -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jamesthefishy.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 127 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081117/99f7c5fb/jamesthefishy-0001.vcf From kmeyer at blarg.net Mon Nov 17 18:57:46 2008 From: kmeyer at blarg.net (Ken Meyer) Date: Mon Nov 17 18:54:48 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Linux (Ubuntu?) for Seniors Project? In-Reply-To: <2b5bab0f0811171612s3d25c0d9q4a5f23a1e4b26d17@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Paul, that might or might not help. My experience has been that the problems result more from total misapprehension of what is going on, often with an accompanying self-assured assumption that the misapprehension is correct. That is, it hardly makes a difference how simple the interface is if you can't at all "think like a computer". I'm not saying that every person that will be helped will be so clueless, but only that some most assuredly will, and anyone embarking on such a volunteer program would be well-advised to be prepared with a "plan B". It is very difficult to bail out on a person who doesn't get it despite your extended best efforts and to avoid implying in the process that they are as stupid as a rock. I knew an elderly woman who wanted to know how to play VCR tapes and to record a show in progress (not even to program time-shifting). She had been the first female news correspondent in Europe during WW II, and she had been President of the press club in D.C. She also wrote like 22 cook-books; it would seem that some quantitative logical capability would be required, yes? However, she NEVER really got it with the functions of, what, half a dozen buttons on the remote that could affect what she needed to do. She seemingly could not comprehend the idea of sequential logic, i.e. explaining how to get to where you want to go depends on where you start from. She was very testy about it and even took one VCR back to the store, claiming that it was broken, before I could intercept it. This sort of thing ultimately pretty much wrecked what had been a nice friendship with an otherwise very intelligent and interesting person. How many "buttons" are on the simplest of computer interfaces? Aside from that, recycled computers will break, so even competent operators may require assistance -- and if they lose data, it will be your fault. Giving the assistance is still a great idea. Just be prepared to be patient and have a good plan to address adversity and perhaps to limit your commitment going in. Ken M. -----Original Message----- From: paul.bartell@gmail.com [mailto:paul.bartell@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Paul Bartell Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 4:12 PM To: kmeyer@blarg.net Cc: Gslug-general@gslug.org Subject: Re: [Gslug-general] Linux (Ubuntu?) for Seniors Project? I think that putting moblin or a similiar dumbed down interface on the computers would be better. Make it so simple, that they dont need at teacher and can learn on their own. Or better yet, make a curriculum, or use the ubuntu desktop training course (or a modified version without the unneeded things) On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 3:34 PM, Ken Meyer wrote: > I think that this is a great idea. Hoping not to appear to be, or create > the effect of, a "wet blanket", I only wish to call your attention to the > fact that this is not a "install and forget" activity. There was, in fact, > a volunteer effort to install Linux at the Green Lake Senior Center, at > least on their server, and it required a lot of effort before I believe the > whole thing was scrapped to install Windows when the Center got some grant > or other. > > Although it may be possible for those acquainted with Windows to transition > without too much help, many of those who will be interested will not be > clueful at all, and I can assure you from personal experience that these > people often have little patience and expect the box to voluntarily do > back-flips for them, having perhaps been oversold about the magic of > computers or just being legitimately old-age cranky. One will have all > sorts of exasperated calls about both legit crashes and misconceptions about > how the computers operate. > > The library and many technology centers provide classes, but I doubt whether > those people know much about Linux. > > There are also other organizations that already refurb computers for these > purposes, but I don't know what they do about providing an O/S that is > equally affordable as a refurbed machine. I know that M$ at one time was > giving these organizations a hard time about re-installing Windows, even if > the machine came from the original owner with a legit copy installed. > Perhaps they have relented on that subject. > > I would recommend that the group do some serious research into partnerships > with the refurbers and try to learn about how similar programs elsewhere > have fared, successful or not or just getting advice. > > Again, I think that this is a most worthy endeavor, but please do not go > into it naively. If people are left in the lurch with a Linux machine that > frustrates them, even if they have totally unrealistic expectations, or do > not have two functioning brain cells to rub together, it will become a black > mark for Linux. > > Ken M. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: gslug-general-bounces@gslug.org > [mailto:gslug-general-bounces@gslug.org] > On Behalf Of Michael_Faraday > Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 12:25 PM > To: Gslug-general@gslug.org > > Subject: [Gslug-general] Linux (Ubuntu?) for Seniors Project? > All, > > A staffer at the North Shore Senior Center in Bothell told me they get many > donated desktop computers they cannot use in the center. Some are too old. > Some are too much trouble to configure like their existing > continuing-education computers. > > I'm wondering whether anyone wants to look into getting some going with a > non-geeky Linux for low-income seniors. Your thoughts? > > Steven > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > -- Random quote of the week/month/whenever i get to updating it: "Opportunity knocked. My doorman threw him out." - Adrienne Gusoff "At school you don't get parole, good behavior only brings a longer sentence." - The History Boys From jamesthefishy at gmail.com Mon Nov 17 19:09:54 2008 From: jamesthefishy at gmail.com (james michael) Date: Mon Nov 17 19:06:25 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Linux (Ubuntu?) for Seniors Project? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49223202.9000406@gmail.com> I think a simple interface and a detailed training course where we are patient and understanding on all questions. Also I know my own grandfather was turned off from computers a little because of the adult content that we all know of. A filter to block these things would be a good. maybe a way to keep that block filter updated as the internet grows on would be good too. Also plan to have someone stop by once or twice a month to make sure there is no maintenance problems. I would be willing to help teach and answer questions, as well as guide installs if needed. Ken Meyer wrote: > Paul, that might or might not help. My experience has been that the > problems result more from total misapprehension of what is going on, often > with an accompanying self-assured assumption that the misapprehension is > correct. That is, it hardly makes a difference how simple the interface is > if you can't at all "think like a computer". > > I'm not saying that every person that will be helped will be so clueless, > but only that some most assuredly will, and anyone embarking on such a > volunteer program would be well-advised to be prepared with a "plan B". It > is very difficult to bail out on a person who doesn't get it despite your > extended best efforts and to avoid implying in the process that they are as > stupid as a rock. > > I knew an elderly woman who wanted to know how to play VCR tapes and to > record a show in progress (not even to program time-shifting). She had been > the first female news correspondent in Europe during WW II, and she had been > President of the press club in D.C. She also wrote like 22 cook-books; it > would seem that some quantitative logical capability would be required, yes? > However, she NEVER really got it with the functions of, what, half a dozen > buttons on the remote that could affect what she needed to do. She > seemingly could not comprehend the idea of sequential logic, i.e. explaining > how to get to where you want to go depends on where you start from. She was > very testy about it and even took one VCR back to the store, claiming that > it was broken, before I could intercept it. This sort of thing ultimately > pretty much wrecked what had been a nice friendship with an otherwise very > intelligent and interesting person. How many "buttons" are on the simplest > of computer interfaces? > > Aside from that, recycled computers will break, so even competent operators > may require assistance -- and if they lose data, it will be your fault. > > Giving the assistance is still a great idea. Just be prepared to be patient > and have a good plan to address adversity and perhaps to limit your > commitment going in. > > Ken M. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: paul.bartell@gmail.com [mailto:paul.bartell@gmail.com] > On Behalf Of Paul Bartell > Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 4:12 PM > To: kmeyer@blarg.net > Cc: Gslug-general@gslug.org > > Subject: Re: [Gslug-general] Linux (Ubuntu?) for Seniors Project? > > I think that putting moblin or a similiar dumbed down interface on the > computers would be better. Make it so simple, that they dont need at > teacher and can learn on their own. Or better yet, make a curriculum, > or use the ubuntu desktop training course (or a modified version > without the unneeded things) > > > On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 3:34 PM, Ken Meyer wrote: > > >> I think that this is a great idea. Hoping not to appear to be, or create >> the effect of, a "wet blanket", I only wish to call your attention to the >> fact that this is not a "install and forget" activity. There was, in >> > fact, > >> a volunteer effort to install Linux at the Green Lake Senior Center, at >> least on their server, and it required a lot of effort before I believe >> > the > >> whole thing was scrapped to install Windows when the Center got some grant >> or other. >> >> Although it may be possible for those acquainted with Windows to >> > transition > >> without too much help, many of those who will be interested will not be >> clueful at all, and I can assure you from personal experience that these >> people often have little patience and expect the box to voluntarily do >> back-flips for them, having perhaps been oversold about the magic of >> computers or just being legitimately old-age cranky. One will have all >> sorts of exasperated calls about both legit crashes and misconceptions >> > about > >> how the computers operate. >> >> The library and many technology centers provide classes, but I doubt >> > whether > >> those people know much about Linux. >> >> There are also other organizations that already refurb computers for these >> purposes, but I don't know what they do about providing an O/S that is >> equally affordable as a refurbed machine. I know that M$ at one time was >> giving these organizations a hard time about re-installing Windows, even >> > if > >> the machine came from the original owner with a legit copy installed. >> Perhaps they have relented on that subject. >> >> I would recommend that the group do some serious research into >> > partnerships > >> with the refurbers and try to learn about how similar programs elsewhere >> have fared, successful or not or just getting advice. >> >> Again, I think that this is a most worthy endeavor, but please do not go >> into it naively. If people are left in the lurch with a Linux machine >> > that > >> frustrates them, even if they have totally unrealistic expectations, or do >> not have two functioning brain cells to rub together, it will become a >> > black > >> mark for Linux. >> >> Ken M. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: gslug-general-bounces@gslug.org >> [mailto:gslug-general-bounces@gslug.org] >> On Behalf Of Michael_Faraday >> Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 12:25 PM >> To: Gslug-general@gslug.org >> >> Subject: [Gslug-general] Linux (Ubuntu?) for Seniors Project? >> All, >> >> A staffer at the North Shore Senior Center in Bothell told me they get >> > many > >> donated desktop computers they cannot use in the center. Some are too old. >> Some are too much trouble to configure like their existing >> continuing-education computers. >> >> I'm wondering whether anyone wants to look into getting some going with a >> non-geeky Linux for low-income seniors. Your thoughts? >> >> Steven >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Gslug-general mailing list >> Gslug-general@gslug.org >> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general >> >> > > > > -- > Random quote of the week/month/whenever i get to updating it: > "Opportunity knocked. My doorman threw him out." - Adrienne Gusoff > > "At school you don't get parole, good behavior only brings a longer > sentence." - The History Boys > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jamesthefishy.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 127 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081117/7a0189b6/jamesthefishy.vcf From jamesthefishy at gmail.com Mon Nov 17 19:49:02 2008 From: jamesthefishy at gmail.com (james michael) Date: Mon Nov 17 19:45:32 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Technology Based Beginning Positions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49223B2E.40607@gmail.com> I was wondering if anyone knows of any beginning positions for someone wanting to start off in the technology field. Mainly in a PC based field would be preferred. I have been looking for a while and would by grateful if anyone could point out a few companies or positions that are open. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jamesthefishy.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 127 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081117/48afd8ba/jamesthefishy.vcf From travis.eeepc at gmail.com Mon Nov 17 20:03:34 2008 From: travis.eeepc at gmail.com (Travis) Date: Mon Nov 17 19:57:09 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Everyone: Please read and share your thoughtsonhow to improve GSLUG References: <101346.13587.qm@web53709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <49222F32.6060702@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0E119E65C5BB4B40A1F2589737390BC3@EeePC> james michael wrote: > Travis wrote: >> David wrote: >>> How about a netbook meeting? I know it's not as technical as some >>> would prefer, but they are quite the rage these days and I think >>> it'd be cool to see many in one setting. Especially if we could >>> coordinate beforehand who has what, people wouldn't have to see the >>> same distro on the same netbook multiple times. >> >> >> >> I have an Eee PC 1000H dualbooting XP and Ubuntu 8.10. Not >> everything works yet but I'm working on it. > Meh its a good idea, I'd like to see that more generalized, like a > mobile device meeting... Mobile device? -- Travis in Shoreline Washington From jamesthefishy at gmail.com Mon Nov 17 20:16:46 2008 From: jamesthefishy at gmail.com (james michael) Date: Mon Nov 17 20:13:32 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Everyone: Please read and share your thoughtsonhow to improve GSLUG In-Reply-To: <0E119E65C5BB4B40A1F2589737390BC3@EeePC> References: <101346.13587.qm@web53709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <49222F32.6060702@gmail.com> <0E119E65C5BB4B40A1F2589737390BC3@EeePC> Message-ID: <492241AE.7000609@gmail.com> Travis wrote: > james michael wrote: >> Travis wrote: >>> David wrote: >>>> How about a netbook meeting? I know it's not as technical as some >>>> would prefer, but they are quite the rage these days and I think >>>> it'd be cool to see many in one setting. Especially if we could >>>> coordinate beforehand who has what, people wouldn't have to see the >>>> same distro on the same netbook multiple times. >>> >>> >>> >>> I have an Eee PC 1000H dualbooting XP and Ubuntu 8.10. Not >>> everything works yet but I'm working on it. >> Meh its a good idea, I'd like to see that more generalized, like a >> mobile device meeting... > > Mobile device? Mobile devices are anything that can be easily brought places, laptops, smart phones, netbooks, palm devices. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_device -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jamesthefishy.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 127 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081117/6f2ef63a/jamesthefishy.vcf From aonoraha at gmail.com Mon Nov 17 20:28:17 2008 From: aonoraha at gmail.com (Aaron Appelbaum) Date: Mon Nov 17 20:25:13 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Technology Based Beginning Positions In-Reply-To: <49223B2E.40607@gmail.com> References: <49223B2E.40607@gmail.com> Message-ID: <90312f880811172028w8249877x19b0e5f874876e65@mail.gmail.com> James, Have you tried contacting any of the technical recruitment firms? Many recruitment firms have contract positions that will accept entry level skills. Recruiters work for you by looking at requirements for open positions and trying to find a match. It's a great way to get your foot in the door and build your resume. Here are a few with a Seattle/Eastside presence (there are many, many more): Robert Half iMatch Macrostaff Parker Technical Siemens Volt Comsys Do you have a resume and cover letter? -Aaron On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 7:49 PM, james michael wrote: > I was wondering if anyone knows of any beginning positions for someone > wanting to start off in the technology field. Mainly in a PC based field > would be preferred. I have been looking for a while and would by grateful if > anyone could point out a few companies or positions that are open. > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > From jamesthefishy at gmail.com Mon Nov 17 21:03:25 2008 From: jamesthefishy at gmail.com (james michael) Date: Mon Nov 17 20:59:55 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Technology Based Beginning Positions In-Reply-To: <90312f880811172028w8249877x19b0e5f874876e65@mail.gmail.com> References: <49223B2E.40607@gmail.com> <90312f880811172028w8249877x19b0e5f874876e65@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49224C9D.9090106@gmail.com> I do have a resume and cover letter. I will look into these recruitment firms. My family on both sides has just hit financial problems. I've been looking into almost everything from office depot/max to fast food to grocery stores. Aaron Appelbaum wrote: > James, > > Have you tried contacting any of the technical recruitment firms? Many > recruitment firms have contract positions that will accept entry level > skills. Recruiters work for you by looking at requirements for open > positions and trying to find a match. It's a great way to get your > foot in the door and build your resume. > > Here are a few with a Seattle/Eastside presence (there are many, many more): > > Robert Half > iMatch > Macrostaff > Parker Technical > Siemens > Volt > Comsys > > Do you have a resume and cover letter? > > -Aaron > > On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 7:49 PM, james michael wrote: > >> I was wondering if anyone knows of any beginning positions for someone >> wanting to start off in the technology field. Mainly in a PC based field >> would be preferred. I have been looking for a while and would by grateful if >> anyone could point out a few companies or positions that are open. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Gslug-general mailing list >> Gslug-general@gslug.org >> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general >> >> > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jamesthefishy.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 127 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081117/865b03c6/jamesthefishy.vcf From aonoraha at gmail.com Mon Nov 17 21:08:03 2008 From: aonoraha at gmail.com (Aaron Appelbaum) Date: Mon Nov 17 21:04:58 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Technology Based Beginning Positions In-Reply-To: <49224C9D.9090106@gmail.com> References: <49223B2E.40607@gmail.com> <90312f880811172028w8249877x19b0e5f874876e65@mail.gmail.com> <49224C9D.9090106@gmail.com> Message-ID: <90312f880811172108q7b776364l6eb3d2dbf6e87d12@mail.gmail.com> I would try Volt first. My experience has been that they are always looking for warm bodies for software testing. It beats flipping burgers! On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 9:03 PM, james michael wrote: > I do have a resume and cover letter. I will look into these recruitment > firms. My family on both sides has just hit financial problems. I've been > looking into almost everything from office depot/max to fast food to grocery > stores. > > Aaron Appelbaum wrote: >> >> James, >> >> Have you tried contacting any of the technical recruitment firms? Many >> recruitment firms have contract positions that will accept entry level >> skills. Recruiters work for you by looking at requirements for open >> positions and trying to find a match. It's a great way to get your >> foot in the door and build your resume. >> >> Here are a few with a Seattle/Eastside presence (there are many, many >> more): >> >> Robert Half >> iMatch >> Macrostaff >> Parker Technical >> Siemens >> Volt >> Comsys >> >> Do you have a resume and cover letter? >> >> -Aaron >> >> On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 7:49 PM, james michael >> wrote: >> >>> >>> I was wondering if anyone knows of any beginning positions for someone >>> wanting to start off in the technology field. Mainly in a PC based field >>> would be preferred. I have been looking for a while and would by grateful >>> if >>> anyone could point out a few companies or positions that are open. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Gslug-general mailing list >>> Gslug-general@gslug.org >>> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general >>> >>> >> >> > > From jamesthefishy at gmail.com Mon Nov 17 21:15:18 2008 From: jamesthefishy at gmail.com (james michael) Date: Mon Nov 17 21:11:48 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Technology Based Beginning Positions In-Reply-To: <90312f880811172108q7b776364l6eb3d2dbf6e87d12@mail.gmail.com> References: <49223B2E.40607@gmail.com> <90312f880811172028w8249877x19b0e5f874876e65@mail.gmail.com> <49224C9D.9090106@gmail.com> <90312f880811172108q7b776364l6eb3d2dbf6e87d12@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49224F66.1040304@gmail.com> I already signed up, I will talk to them soon. Most likely tomorrow. Aaron Appelbaum wrote: > I would try Volt first. My experience has been that they are always > looking for warm bodies for software testing. It beats flipping > burgers! > > On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 9:03 PM, james michael wrote: > >> I do have a resume and cover letter. I will look into these recruitment >> firms. My family on both sides has just hit financial problems. I've been >> looking into almost everything from office depot/max to fast food to grocery >> stores. >> >> Aaron Appelbaum wrote: >> >>> James, >>> >>> Have you tried contacting any of the technical recruitment firms? Many >>> recruitment firms have contract positions that will accept entry level >>> skills. Recruiters work for you by looking at requirements for open >>> positions and trying to find a match. It's a great way to get your >>> foot in the door and build your resume. >>> >>> Here are a few with a Seattle/Eastside presence (there are many, many >>> more): >>> >>> Robert Half >>> iMatch >>> Macrostaff >>> Parker Technical >>> Siemens >>> Volt >>> Comsys >>> >>> Do you have a resume and cover letter? >>> >>> -Aaron >>> >>> On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 7:49 PM, james michael >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> I was wondering if anyone knows of any beginning positions for someone >>>> wanting to start off in the technology field. Mainly in a PC based field >>>> would be preferred. I have been looking for a while and would by grateful >>>> if >>>> anyone could point out a few companies or positions that are open. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Gslug-general mailing list >>>> Gslug-general@gslug.org >>>> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jamesthefishy.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 127 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081117/9a783a40/jamesthefishy.vcf From ashex at chipnick.com Mon Nov 17 21:19:53 2008 From: ashex at chipnick.com (Ahmed Osman) Date: Mon Nov 17 21:16:55 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Technology Based Beginning Positions In-Reply-To: <49224F66.1040304@gmail.com> References: <49223B2E.40607@gmail.com> <90312f880811172028w8249877x19b0e5f874876e65@mail.gmail.com> <49224C9D.9090106@gmail.com> <90312f880811172108q7b776364l6eb3d2dbf6e87d12@mail.gmail.com> <49224F66.1040304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49225079.5000108@chipnick.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Are you located in Seattle? There's a weekend help desk position at a company I used to work for that's frequently open. It's 6am-3pm sat&sun. It's located in South lake union. Let me know if you're interested and I'll check if the position is open. Another agency to look at is Apex Systems, I can send you my reps contact info. james michael wrote: > I already signed up, I will talk to them soon. Most likely tomorrow. > > Aaron Appelbaum wrote: >> I would try Volt first. My experience has been that they are always >> looking for warm bodies for software testing. It beats flipping >> burgers! >> >> On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 9:03 PM, james michael >> wrote: >> >>> I do have a resume and cover letter. I will look into these >>> recruitment >>> firms. My family on both sides has just hit financial problems. >>> I've been >>> looking into almost everything from office depot/max to fast food >>> to grocery >>> stores. >>> >>> Aaron Appelbaum wrote: >>> >>>> James, >>>> >>>> Have you tried contacting any of the technical recruitment firms? >>>> Many >>>> recruitment firms have contract positions that will accept entry >>>> level >>>> skills. Recruiters work for you by looking at requirements for open >>>> positions and trying to find a match. It's a great way to get your >>>> foot in the door and build your resume. >>>> >>>> Here are a few with a Seattle/Eastside presence (there are many, >>>> many >>>> more): >>>> >>>> Robert Half >>>> iMatch >>>> Macrostaff >>>> Parker Technical >>>> Siemens >>>> Volt >>>> Comsys >>>> >>>> Do you have a resume and cover letter? >>>> >>>> -Aaron >>>> >>>> On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 7:49 PM, james michael >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> I was wondering if anyone knows of any beginning positions for >>>>> someone >>>>> wanting to start off in the technology field. Mainly in a PC >>>>> based field >>>>> would be preferred. I have been looking for a while and would by >>>>> grateful >>>>> if >>>>> anyone could point out a few companies or positions that are open. >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Gslug-general mailing list >>>>> Gslug-general@gslug.org >>>>> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkkiUHgACgkQmamAFmguZ5/10gCeMSje2D6dh8chl4DS2aKCPE3P euwAoJqUsGj2/jaiQO700k1Hlh1ExnEt =6kYC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jamesthefishy at gmail.com Mon Nov 17 21:33:44 2008 From: jamesthefishy at gmail.com (james michael) Date: Mon Nov 17 21:30:12 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Technology Based Beginning Positions In-Reply-To: <49225079.5000108@chipnick.com> References: <49223B2E.40607@gmail.com> <90312f880811172028w8249877x19b0e5f874876e65@mail.gmail.com> <49224C9D.9090106@gmail.com> <90312f880811172108q7b776364l6eb3d2dbf6e87d12@mail.gmail.com> <49224F66.1040304@gmail.com> <49225079.5000108@chipnick.com> Message-ID: <492253B8.1040708@gmail.com> Yes, I am located in Seattle. I would appreciate that very much. Thanks. Feel free to send me your reps contact info as well. Ahmed Osman wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Are you located in Seattle? There's a weekend help desk position at a > company I used to work for that's frequently open. It's 6am-3pm > sat&sun. It's located in South lake union. Let me know if you're > interested and I'll check if the position is open. > Another agency to look at is Apex Systems, I can send you my reps > contact info. > > > > james michael wrote: > >> I already signed up, I will talk to them soon. Most likely tomorrow. >> >> Aaron Appelbaum wrote: >> >>> I would try Volt first. My experience has been that they are always >>> looking for warm bodies for software testing. It beats flipping >>> burgers! >>> >>> On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 9:03 PM, james michael >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> I do have a resume and cover letter. I will look into these >>>> recruitment >>>> firms. My family on both sides has just hit financial problems. >>>> I've been >>>> looking into almost everything from office depot/max to fast food >>>> to grocery >>>> stores. >>>> >>>> Aaron Appelbaum wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> James, >>>>> >>>>> Have you tried contacting any of the technical recruitment firms? >>>>> Many >>>>> recruitment firms have contract positions that will accept entry >>>>> level >>>>> skills. Recruiters work for you by looking at requirements for open >>>>> positions and trying to find a match. It's a great way to get your >>>>> foot in the door and build your resume. >>>>> >>>>> Here are a few with a Seattle/Eastside presence (there are many, >>>>> many >>>>> more): >>>>> >>>>> Robert Half >>>>> iMatch >>>>> Macrostaff >>>>> Parker Technical >>>>> Siemens >>>>> Volt >>>>> Comsys >>>>> >>>>> Do you have a resume and cover letter? >>>>> >>>>> -Aaron >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 7:49 PM, james michael >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> I was wondering if anyone knows of any beginning positions for >>>>>> someone >>>>>> wanting to start off in the technology field. Mainly in a PC >>>>>> based field >>>>>> would be preferred. I have been looking for a while and would by >>>>>> grateful >>>>>> if >>>>>> anyone could point out a few companies or positions that are open. >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Gslug-general mailing list >>>>>> Gslug-general@gslug.org >>>>>> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Gslug-general mailing list >> Gslug-general@gslug.org >> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general >> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkkiUHgACgkQmamAFmguZ5/10gCeMSje2D6dh8chl4DS2aKCPE3P > euwAoJqUsGj2/jaiQO700k1Hlh1ExnEt > =6kYC > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jamesthefishy.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 127 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081117/628c2f6e/jamesthefishy.vcf From pencil_pusher at hotmail.com Tue Nov 18 00:22:10 2008 From: pencil_pusher at hotmail.com (David) Date: Tue Nov 18 00:19:13 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Linux (Ubuntu?) for Seniors Project? References: <165859.95540.qm@web36404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <007D508EB3C94956A350166B57703A31@EeePC> Message-ID: Oh I don't know about that... There are some very simple tasks that can be accomplished, and for some, that is enough. Whether it's Ubuntu or whatever, I think the important thing is to not go off on many tangents with these folks. Show them, show them again, ask if they understand, let them do it and repeat as needed. You know, kiss: keep it simple, stupid. I'd guess the two biggest items would be surfing the web and email. More power to them if they think the internet is a series of tubes, lol. It looks like Firefox has a content-filtering extension, ProCon, though I have not used it. > > > I'm not low income but I am a senior and I can't imagine a senior that is > not a real geek getting any use out of a Linux machine. > From jamesthefishy at gmail.com Tue Nov 18 00:28:30 2008 From: jamesthefishy at gmail.com (James Michael) Date: Tue Nov 18 00:25:41 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Linux (Ubuntu?) for Seniors Project? In-Reply-To: References: <165859.95540.qm@web36404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <007D508EB3C94956A350166B57703A31@EeePC> Message-ID: <49227CAE.8070907@gmail.com> If its windows, Linux or anything else as long as it provides no/self maintenance and an easy interface to get to the internet + games (like cards) i think they will be happy David wrote: > Oh I don't know about that... There are some very simple tasks that > can be accomplished, and for some, that is enough. Whether it's > Ubuntu or whatever, I think the important thing is to not go off on > many tangents with these folks. Show them, show them again, ask if > they understand, let them do it and repeat as needed. You know, kiss: > keep it simple, stupid. I'd guess the two biggest items would be > surfing the web and email. More power to them if they think the > internet is a series of tubes, lol. > > It looks like Firefox has a content-filtering extension, ProCon, > though I have not used it. > > > >> >> >> I'm not low income but I am a senior and I can't imagine a senior >> that is not a real geek getting any use out of a Linux machine. >> > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > From paul-bartell at ubuntu.com Tue Nov 18 06:10:25 2008 From: paul-bartell at ubuntu.com (Paul Bartell) Date: Tue Nov 18 06:07:24 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Linux (Ubuntu?) for Seniors Project? In-Reply-To: <49227CAE.8070907@gmail.com> References: <165859.95540.qm@web36404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <007D508EB3C94956A350166B57703A31@EeePC> <49227CAE.8070907@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2b5bab0f0811180610l5a65beb2j858c095b94c801a6@mail.gmail.com> more than likely, filtering is already implemented at the senior center, for the employees. On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 12:28 AM, James Michael wrote: > If its windows, Linux or anything else as long as it provides no/self > maintenance and an easy interface to get to the internet + games (like > cards) i think they will be happy > David wrote: >> >> Oh I don't know about that... There are some very simple tasks that can be >> accomplished, and for some, that is enough. Whether it's Ubuntu or >> whatever, I think the important thing is to not go off on many tangents with >> these folks. Show them, show them again, ask if they understand, let them >> do it and repeat as needed. You know, kiss: keep it simple, stupid. I'd >> guess the two biggest items would be surfing the web and email. More power >> to them if they think the internet is a series of tubes, lol. >> >> It looks like Firefox has a content-filtering extension, ProCon, though I >> have not used it. >> >> >> >>> >>> >>> I'm not low income but I am a senior and I can't imagine a senior that is >>> not a real geek getting any use out of a Linux machine. >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Gslug-general mailing list >> Gslug-general@gslug.org >> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general >> > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > -- Random quote of the week/month/whenever i get to updating it: "Opportunity knocked. My doorman threw him out." - Adrienne Gusoff "At school you don't get parole, good behavior only brings a longer sentence." - The History Boys From paul-bartell at ubuntu.com Tue Nov 18 06:18:49 2008 From: paul-bartell at ubuntu.com (Paul Bartell) Date: Tue Nov 18 06:15:43 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] wireless - Portland style In-Reply-To: <59c88c4d0811171623v61a7c7dfhc2c1ff6e2fc6e1bf@mail.gmail.com> References: <609b18560811171357x5e836f9bp9ae0f597b54f3b7@mail.gmail.com> <4b5c15340811171414ldce367fu2313014e7dfe121a@mail.gmail.com> <609b18560811171446n5a8f148fv86f5816a5c49ce07@mail.gmail.com> <4b5c15340811171508j2bd2865fw26e9f45ee5d94737@mail.gmail.com> <59c88c4d0811171623v61a7c7dfhc2c1ff6e2fc6e1bf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2b5bab0f0811180618s6ea38019ocaa5248202614d60@mail.gmail.com> DD-WRT does support multiple SSiDs but putting SSIds of vlans seemed quite complicated when i tried it a while ago. On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 4:23 PM, Lee Colleton wrote: > The Fonera solves this open access problem with two SSIDs; One can be > encrypted for private use with the other left open for the public. > > DD-WRT also supports multiple SSIDs according to this forum. I should try > setting that up some time... > > --Lee > > On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 3:08 PM, Ian Gallagher wrote: >> >> On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 14:46, Brandon Fouts >> wrote: >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 2:14 PM, Ian Gallagher wrote: >>>> >>>> On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 13:57, Brandon Fouts >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> (Is a local wi-fi user more dangerous than the million of other users >>>>> on the internet? I doubt it. >>>> >>>> Yes, they certainly can be >>> >>> Well, the couple of dozen people in my neighborhood? I don't think so. >>> And my host has a firewall too and I don't have my host on, unless I'm using >>> it - you get what I'm driving at? >> >> Sure, if you don't present assets of interest then there won't be anyone >> to go after them, same if those assets aren't interesting to those who have >> access to them, if you want to look at it that way. >> Also, theres the whole idea of "defense in depth" or a "layered approach >> to security", from the internet perspective you've got your router and it's >> firewall or ACL stuff, then your desktop's firewall and AV/etc/etc, remove >> that router firewall/acl layer and it's just one less thing an attacker has >> to pound at. It's not the best scenario, but imagine that ipfilter or the >> windows firewall had a bug in it that allowed it to be bypassed, then a >> local attacker could leverage that whereas they probably couldn't if they >> had the router in the way. >> >> >>>> >>>> - think about it, your router typically will block everything from the >>>> internet inbound to your computers behind it, but if someone is on your >>>> access point and it's more or less out-of-the-box configuration, they now >>>> have direct access to your machines behind the router. >>> >>> Well, perhaps those reading this list could gain access, but them you'd >>> have to come to my house and you probably won't bother - ferry costs money >>> ;-) >> >> There's weird people out there ;] Again, you drive home what you and I >> just said above I guess. >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Of course, we see more attacks on users via the internet (cross-site >>>> scripting, other client side vulnerabilities) that don't rely on directed >>>> attacks anyways. >>> >>> That's what I'm talking about >>>> >>>> Also, someone on your local access point could do more interesting >>>> network level attacks on your network than they usually could via the >>>> internet, such as ARP poisoning for man in the middle attacks, sniffing your >>>> traffic, etc. >>> >>> Well, i have many other reasons for not doing on-line banking - you think >>> my security is bad? You should check out a bank running windows - recent >>> events show just how smart those finance guys are - as in smart at stealing >>> money, not protecting it. Damn can you believe how much they are taking? And >>> I thought the Iraq war was profittable - direct access to the Treasury - now >>> you're talking real money. >> >> Yup.. your banking may not be the scariest thing, we seem to have at least >> gotten reasonable end to end security going for that sort of thing (properly >> configured SSL, and your browsers make it a reasonably painful experience >> for you to go to a site with a badly configured SSL certificate now-a-days) >> There's plenty more subtle things that could be leaked though, such as >> your email - not everyone realizes that you have to make an effort to force >> GMail to use SSL throughout your session for example, instead of only during >> authentication. >> >> >>>> >>>> >>>> As far as what PersonalTelco does about this, I'm not too sure - check >>>> out their website more to find out. >>> >>> What did I do with that URL? oh yeh, I see it - just ribbing you a >>> little.... >>> I have been meaning to see if: openWRT - and similar offerings >>> would allow a differnet subnet for my "wired" machines - and leave the >>> wireless access to a another subnet - and not route between the two >>> subnets...so many ideas, so little time. >> >> Certainly, as Glenn mentioned previously you can setup a DMZ for an open >> wireless network and that's not a half bad way to do things. Certaily you >> can do this with OpenWRT/dd/...etc or a *nix box. Again, not a bad way to go >> - defense in depth and priviledge seperation! Hooray! :) >> >>>> >>>> Maybe we could organize a Seattlewireless talk at GSLUG sometime if >>>> people are interested. If we can pull some of them away from their beer and >>>> such =] >>> >>> Perhaps the seattlewireless guys have also considered these security >>> ideas ?? >>> thanks Ian, for your comments. >> >> Seattlewireless is a bit different, the goal there is to create an >> independant network from the Internet that can exist only with community >> support and not rely on commercial dependancies or other infrastructure. >> Most of the people who participate in the SWN network are fairly security >> concious as well, though. >> >> Thanks for the conversation! >> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -Ian Gallagher >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= >>> www.psnug.org >>> Puget Sound Network Users Group >>> >>> Building Technical Skills Through Teamwork And Education. >>> Helping members realize Open Standards and investigate Open Source. >>> _____________________ >>> PSNUG dues/food $35 per year -21st anniversary coffee mug >>> that you can pickup at any meeting - no we don't ship. >>> pay at monthly meeting or send checks payable to: PSNUG >>> >>> PSNUG >>> c/o Brandon Fouts >>> 9549a Olympus Beach Rd NE >>> Bainbridge Island, WA 98110-3446 >>> ==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-== >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Gslug-general mailing list >> Gslug-general@gslug.org >> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > -- Random quote of the week/month/whenever i get to updating it: "Opportunity knocked. My doorman threw him out." - Adrienne Gusoff "At school you don't get parole, good behavior only brings a longer sentence." - The History Boys From kmeyer at blarg.net Tue Nov 18 10:35:09 2008 From: kmeyer at blarg.net (Ken Meyer) Date: Tue Nov 18 10:32:03 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Linux (Ubuntu?) for Seniors Project? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Let me take another run at this: This is not a matter that can be addressed by the quality of instruction, wham-bam, thank you maam. Some people, who are otherwise extremely intelligent, seem to have zero capability to perform logical, stepwise reasoning. You might say that their right brains have completely overwhelmed their left brains. Although these people may be a small percentage of the population (or maybe not), it is not an accident that they are distilled into that population segment that has avoided computers for as long as possible, and is only trying to get on-board now because just about every ad and article that is printed has a URL attached to it, to get more information, place an order, etc. I would suggest that, in some ways, an Internet connection is more important today than a phone connection (and of course, can itself provide a phone connection). My ever-loving has two Associate degrees and a lot of office work experience. She can take 20 two-dimensional pattern pieces and put them together as a three-dimensional garment that fits perfectly, which boggles my mind. But when I met her as a mature adult, she would actually physically shake when she sat down at a keyboard, knowing that she was responsible for coercing some results out of the machine. She took a certificate program in Business Information Technology at NSCC to get on-board, which was a struggle, and it has taken a lot more effort and ongoing help to get her in shape to use the computer effectively on a daily basis for accessing data and then performing relatively basic operations with Word, Excel and Outlook. Now, she does fine with the essential operations at work at NSCC, but when she does have the incentive to expand her capabilities, she still requires hands-on help; you can't just throw a book at her and say, "RTFM". And if the computer croaks or does anything anomalous or needs an update, only the computer cavalry can help her. From my experience, I don't think that she is anything like a unique case. I suspect that the upcoming generation is going to be much more blas? about using computers, as they are immersed in them every day in school and have much incentive, like peer pressure, to master them. Some of them may still require help as they age to stay competent in the operations being performed by their peers, but it will be on a much higher level, like maybe how to create a complex website or produce and edit video. However, unless this program is focused on placing computers with kids in low income homes, these people will not be your clientele; it will be those of us who are becoming pseudo-kids again by sliding down the other side of the hill. Again, this would be an extremely worthy project. I just suggest that those who accept the responsibility should have a relatively long-term plan in mind, which includes an acceptance that the commitment will involve a good deal of ongoing interaction to rectify misapprehensions, expand capabilities, troubleshoot problems, etc. including possibly dealing with folks who will take out their frustrations with the computer on you. And given that we have long forgotten the process we went through, and "thinking like a computer" has become second nature to us, we may be inclined to show similar frustrations to our naive clients, "Look, it really is SO simple", "For the fifth time...", etc. There are many programs around already to teach people about computers -- notably at the libraries and the tech centers, of which there are over 100 in Seattle alone. However, if your clients go to them and say they have a Linux machine, the instructors and lab monitors will generally throw up their hands -- i.e. it will be difficult to palm your clients off on other resources when you have had enough. Of course, even if you get them hooked on computing and they find that further expertise is worth having, and they migrate to a Windows machine in order to access other help, you have done a very good deed, though hardly gratifying to the cause and perhaps even detrimental to the overall reputation of open source. Ken Meyer -----Original Message----- From: gslug-general-bounces@gslug.org [mailto:gslug-general-bounces@gslug.org] On Behalf Of David Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 12:22 AM To: Gslug-general@gslug.org Subject: Re: [Gslug-general] Linux (Ubuntu?) for Seniors Project? Oh I don't know about that... There are some very simple tasks that can be accomplished, and for some, that is enough. Whether it's Ubuntu or whatever, I think the important thing is to not go off on many tangents with these folks. Show them, show them again, ask if they understand, let them do it and repeat as needed. You know, kiss: keep it simple, stupid. I'd guess the two biggest items would be surfing the web and email. More power to them if they think the internet is a series of tubes, lol. It looks like Firefox has a content-filtering extension, ProCon, though I have not used it. > I'm not low income but I am a senior and I can't imagine a senior that is > not a real geek getting any use out of a Linux machine. _______________________________________________ Gslug-general mailing list Gslug-general@gslug.org http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general From erratic at devel.ws Tue Nov 18 10:54:13 2008 From: erratic at devel.ws (Paige Thompson) Date: Tue Nov 18 10:51:10 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Fwd: Convincing a school district to migrate from OS X to Ubuntu or Edubuntu In-Reply-To: <91b973500811171612n1211f8bcg7e474bd1aa1f673d@mail.gmail.com> References: <91b973500811171612n1211f8bcg7e474bd1aa1f673d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5061b39c0811181054j2c1a6ee6jf08765ad71a1e2cb@mail.gmail.com> Here's an interesting article I picked up, I recently just migrated the school I work for to google apps edu edition to get away from exchange. Mostly successful, still better than anything I could provide for them. It seems to be working well enough for them. We're also using cisco 871 soho router instead of isa/ windows routing or any of that stuff. Integrating google apps with a linux environment is much more likely than out of active directory. My only thing is I want my own backups, so it would be nice to have it integrated with Ldap so that a backup server could authenticate against apps out of an ldap server and pull mail by imap to be archived. sent from my gphone! ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "David McNally" Date: Nov 17, 2008 4:14 PM Subject: Convincing a school district to migrate from OS X to Ubuntu or Edubuntu To: "Ubuntu user technical support, not for general discussions" < ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com> Hello everybody. This question will probably take a little while to type, but I'll try to get it through. First off, I should probably point out that I live here in the United States, in northern New Jersey. The kind of people who live around me are rich idiots; they're the kind of people who, somehow, have a lot of money, but still use Windows. No one here knows anything about Linux, let alone Ubuntu. I use three different Operating Systems every day: Ubuntu at home, OS X at school, and Windows everywhere else (mostly friends' houses). It's confusing, but I'm pretty good with all three of them. Obviously, Windows is still the worst of the three, and I try to avoid it as often as possible, but that's not too hard. However, I'm completely stuck with OS X at school. I actually have classes where we sit in front of Macs and learn to use Microsoft Office 2008. Which means I'm stuck using that stupid ribbon that those Microsoft imbiciles put into Office 2008. We also browse the web with Safari, the crummy web browser that Apple put into OS X. Then I go home to Ubuntu and everything's just perfect. I'm not saying that OS X is terrible; it's actually pretty good. But time after time, the teachers and students are confused with one program after another not loading or freezing or something. The IT people, in my opinion, have the hardest job in the entire building. They have to make OS X Server work with 500-some-odd computers with OS X (which is harder than it sounds), and install Office 2008 on every computer, and if anything stops working, they're the ones who have to fix it. And, needless to say, there are many other programs that they use. I'm thinking: what if we could just say good-bye to all of this and just switch to Ubuntu or Edubuntu. It would be hard, especially because the school has been on Macintosh since the early 90's, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be impossible. Everyone was able to switch from OS 9 to OS X without too much hassle. I know that the Ubuntu/Edubuntu servers work pretty well, so they could replace OS X Server with that, and replace OS X itself with Ubuntu/Edubuntu. I know that you can run other OSes on iMacs, so we could do that, and we could replace Safari with Firefox, and replace MS Office 2008 with OpenOffice.org. (One of my classes is "Computer Applications" which is really just learning to use Word, Excel, PowerPoint, etc, but my teacher is so used to using the older versions, which were always almost exactly that same, version-to-version, so she is completely confused with the ribbon and all of the other changes. I know that OO.o will probably never put in the ribbon.) But I'm still the only person that I know that uses Linux. I'm on my little Linux island, surrounded by Windows and OS X. Many of my teachers don't even know what Linux is, let alone Ubuntu or Edubuntu. The school has spent hundreds of thousands of dollars (yes, I did all of the math) on software alone; for reasons I don't understand, the school always has to have the most recent version of everything, especially OS X and MS Office. Still, I don't see any reason that it wouldn't work. Everyone would be using OO.o, so it would be just like older versions of MS Office, and the computers would never get viruses, and I know that there are many open-source Linux programs for helping teachers. It couldn't be done overnight, but they could do it over the summer vacation (or maybe even the Christmas vacation). For the few programs that we use where there is no Linux alternative (by the same company or an open-source clone), we would have to use Wine or something like it. I'm not sure what the other alternatives are, but we could find out. Would we be able to do this at all? Also: is Edubuntu really that much better for schools than Ubuntu? Please let me know what you think. Thanks, David McNally -- David McNally david3333333@gmail.com apt-get moo -- ubuntu-users mailing list ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081118/84deac06/attachment.html From erratic at devel.ws Tue Nov 18 11:04:26 2008 From: erratic at devel.ws (Paige Thompson) Date: Tue Nov 18 11:01:21 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Re: Fwd: Convincing a school district to migrate from OS X to Ubuntu or Edubuntu Message-ID: <5061b39c0811181104x5d32ddc0lbca3444587d4749@mail.gmail.com> Also last time I checked nothing indicated that google's account provisioning api supported anything but clear text passwords, did anyone here about those myspace credentials? sent from my gphone! ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "David McNally" Date: Nov 17, 2008 4:14 PM Subject: Convincing a school district to migrate from OS X to Ubuntu or Edubuntu To: "Ubuntu user technical support, not for general discussions" < ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com> Hello everybody. This question will probably take a little while to type, but I'll try to get it through. First off, I should probably point out that I live here in the United States, in northern New Jersey. The kind of people who live around me are rich idiots; they're the kind of people who, somehow, have a lot of money, but still use Windows. No one here knows anything about Linux, let alone Ubuntu. I use three different Operating Systems every day: Ubuntu at home, OS X at school, and Windows everywhere else (mostly friends' houses). It's confusing, but I'm pretty good with all three of them. Obviously, Windows is still the worst of the three, and I try to avoid it as often as possible, but that's not too hard. However, I'm completely stuck with OS X at school. I actually have classes where we sit in front of Macs and learn to use Microsoft Office 2008. Which means I'm stuck using that stupid ribbon that those Microsoft imbiciles put into Office 2008. We also browse the web with Safari, the crummy web browser that Apple put into OS X. Then I go home to Ubuntu and everything's just perfect. I'm not saying that OS X is terrible; it's actually pretty good. But time after time, the teachers and students are confused with one program after another not loading or freezing or something. The IT people, in my opinion, have the hardest job in the entire building. They have to make OS X Server work with 500-some-odd computers with OS X (which is harder than it sounds), and install Office 2008 on every computer, and if anything stops working, they're the ones who have to fix it. And, needless to say, there are many other programs that they use. I'm thinking: what if we could just say good-bye to all of this and just switch to Ubuntu or Edubuntu. It would be hard, especially because the school has been on Macintosh since the early 90's, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be impossible. Everyone was able to switch from OS 9 to OS X without too much hassle. I know that the Ubuntu/Edubuntu servers work pretty well, so they could replace OS X Server with that, and replace OS X itself with Ubuntu/Edubuntu. I know that you can run other OSes on iMacs, so we could do that, and we could replace Safari with Firefox, and replace MS Office 2008 with OpenOffice.org. (One of my classes is "Computer Applications" which is really just learning to use Word, Excel, PowerPoint, etc, but my teacher is so used to using the older versions, which were always almost exactly that same, version-to-version, so she is completely confused with the ribbon and all of the other changes. I know that OO.o will probably never put in the ribbon.) But I'm still the only person that I know that uses Linux. I'm on my little Linux island, surrounded by Windows and OS X. Many of my teachers don't even know what Linux is, let alone Ubuntu or Edubuntu. The school has spent hundreds of thousands of dollars (yes, I did all of the math) on software alone; for reasons I don't understand, the school always has to have the most recent version of everything, especially OS X and MS Office. Still, I don't see any reason that it wouldn't work. Everyone would be using OO.o, so it would be just like older versions of MS Office, and the computers would never get viruses, and I know that there are many open-source Linux programs for helping teachers. It couldn't be done overnight, but they could do it over the summer vacation (or maybe even the Christmas vacation). For the few programs that we use where there is no Linux alternative (by the same company or an open-source clone), we would have to use Wine or something like it. I'm not sure what the other alternatives are, but we could find out. Would we be able to do this at all? Also: is Edubuntu really that much better for schools than Ubuntu? Please let me know what you think. Thanks, David McNally -- David McNally david3333333@gmail.com apt-get moo -- ubuntu-users mailing list ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081118/e26dfc4f/attachment.htm From aonoraha at gmail.com Tue Nov 18 11:53:41 2008 From: aonoraha at gmail.com (Aaron Appelbaum) Date: Tue Nov 18 11:50:36 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Job Openings Message-ID: <90312f880811181153h65d1126eg91b4246f5b5b8a57@mail.gmail.com> I apologize in advance for spamming the list. I am on the job market for a position in sys admin, networking, or information security. If you know of any openings, please email me off list. Many Thanks, -Aaron From steven_coles at yahoo.com Tue Nov 18 12:24:18 2008 From: steven_coles at yahoo.com (Michael_Faraday) Date: Tue Nov 18 12:21:12 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Linux (Ubuntu?) for Seniors Project? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <637430.81516.qm@web36405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> All, OK. I'm a (still sometimes working) senior and I know the senior centers in Bothell and Kenmore well enough that I forgot to paint a picture. We (the seniors using the seniors centers) drop in to the centers anytime from 8:00 AM onward and get kicked out at 3:00 PM (give or take changes from season to season). Most everybody who wants to use a computer learned Word, Internet Explorer, and Photoshop either elsewhere or in the centers' computer labs. Once you have grandchildren Photoshop and the equivalents loom large among applications. Most of us who have not yet done so, could convert to Ubuntu and OpenOffice.org with a couple one-hour lessons. (Would be nice to have the help discussion groups pre-loaded in the bookmarks.) The problem for fixed-income people arises from Microsoft's upgrade method?new bigger OS needing a new expensive computer. Soon the latest and greatest digital cameras, PDF readers, etc. don't work well with older machines running an OS pigging the lion's share of the machine cycles. In contrast I don't see any indication of Ubuntu bogging down on 800-MHz machines. But I doubt many seniors want to tweak in their own peripheral drivers. I suspect I'm unusual, but not unique, in occasionally using the command line (by copying by route from Ubuntu Hacks). Bob at the Kenmore branch outshines me by far?especially in network setup. While in a center most would rather chat (atmospheric) in the coffee shop (Bothell center) than hang around the computer lab waiting for a machine to become available. Consequently, many would like a working machine at home. Steven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081118/ea2d3277/attachment.html From kmeyer at blarg.net Tue Nov 18 13:51:23 2008 From: kmeyer at blarg.net (Ken Meyer) Date: Tue Nov 18 13:48:14 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] FW: gslug Message-ID: Though grateful to the hosting companies, I too think that both the Speakeasy and Widemile meeting rooms were way too small, particularly if we want to make linux help available to new or potential users. The NSCC meeting rooms were at times also too small when more than about 50 showed up for special speakers, but the easy access to elevators or stairs for those bringing in tower computers that they wanted help with made up for that. There was plenty of free parking for those who drove, and it was served by several bus routes ( I prefer the #5 ) for those who couldn't use private vehicles. The drawback was that it cost $50, and NSCC preferred that some of their students attend. If we get 25 attendees, that's only $2 a person to pay for the room. Perhaps someone can negotiate us back into NSCC with the understanding that it will be every 2nd Saturday of the month, no exceptions. I think that we will never have less than a dozen, and after routine is set up, there will probably be more. Rather than kick in for communal food, I think kicking-in to pay for the room is a better use of our money. Those who are hungry can bring their own snacks; no worries about veggies or not. On to the education part of the discussion. http://www.phinneycenter.org/classes.shtml#Computer is the URL for the opensource classes I offer at the Phinney Neighborhood Center. It wasn't easy to get them included amongst all the Windows ones, but I was persistent. The most that I've had sign-up for a single course was 7 for Firefox (when it was still new and IE 7 hadn't come out yet), so I know that it is difficult to get people to try other than M$ or Adobe software. But it is not impossible. Any of you can try something similar at your local community center, senior center, low-budget private school, etc. More advanced topics can be covered at parts of gslug meetings or by using internet resources. Have fun. Harvey Harvey Friedman pnaopensource@gmail.com From paul-bartell at ubuntu.com Tue Nov 18 14:21:18 2008 From: paul-bartell at ubuntu.com (Paul Bartell) Date: Tue Nov 18 14:18:11 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Robotics Team sponsorship Message-ID: <2b5bab0f0811181421i30ef407esc18741dc56542541@mail.gmail.com> Hello gslugers My highschool is getting a team together for the First robotics competition, and we need some sponsorship. Basically, if you know of a company that might be interested, please email back with contact info etc. (were sort of late in the game for funding). Thanks, Paul -- Random quote of the week/month/whenever i get to updating it: "Opportunity knocked. My doorman threw him out." - Adrienne Gusoff "At school you don't get parole, good behavior only brings a longer sentence." - The History Boys From gray.andrew at comcast.net Tue Nov 18 14:23:50 2008 From: gray.andrew at comcast.net (Andrew Gray) Date: Tue Nov 18 14:20:45 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Food at the meeting In-Reply-To: <90312f880811171202l16ca2b84t7f9f99d61509766b@mail.gmail.com> References: <1226944251.15171.2.camel@gina> <2b5bab0f0811171058s3045cd3fm4f717db749c8671f@mail.gmail.com> <1226950270.20353.6.camel@gina> <90312f880811171202l16ca2b84t7f9f99d61509766b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1227047030.2861.2.camel@gina> Great, everybody! I see there is some interest. When the meeting gets closer, I'll post some data on food availability downtown, that is if we're using downtown as our meeting place. On Mon, 2008-11-17 at 12:02 -0800, Aaron Appelbaum wrote: > There's also a wild tiger in west lake center that's open on the weekends. > > On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 11:31 AM, Andrew Gray wrote: > > Wild Tiger Pizza apparently has great pizzas for cheap (according to a > > Google review), it's 1326 5th Ave. (Widemile is 1325 4th, so you can't > > beat the location.) I found a deal online that's 2-for-1 on the pizzas > > but it's only valid through December 1st :( > > > > I think I'm going to go here for my pizza if this goes over well. I'll > > check out the location and prices tomorrow after school. > > > > --Andrew > > > > On Mon, 2008-11-17 at 10:58 -0800, Paul Bartell wrote: > >> anyone know a place in downtown that would be good to buy a pizza at? > >> (I take the bus there usually, so driving it over isint really an > >> option) . If theres an easy to get to place, i'd be willing to get > >> one. > >> > >> On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 9:50 AM, Andrew Gray wrote: > >> > Would anybody be up for bringing one pizza to the meeting? I'd be > >> > willing to bring one if others would also be willing to bring one of > >> > their own to share. If we got enough people willing to provide one > >> > pizza, even just for this month, we might be on to something. > >> > > >> > --Andrew Gray (Sweetandy) > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > Gslug-general mailing list > >> > Gslug-general@gslug.org > >> > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > >> > > >> > >> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Gslug-general mailing list > > Gslug-general@gslug.org > > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > > From travis.eeepc at gmail.com Tue Nov 18 16:29:04 2008 From: travis.eeepc at gmail.com (Travis) Date: Tue Nov 18 16:24:20 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] FW: gslug References: Message-ID: Ken Meyer wrote: > Though grateful to the hosting companies, I too think that both the > Speakeasy and Widemile meeting rooms were way too small, particularly > if we want to make linux help available to new or potential users. > The NSCC meeting rooms were at times also too small when more than > about 50 showed up for special speakers, but the easy access to > elevators or stairs for those bringing in tower computers that they > wanted help with made up for that. There was plenty of free parking > for those who drove, and it was served by several bus routes ( I > prefer the #5 ) for those who couldn't use private vehicles. The > drawback > was that it cost $50, and NSCC preferred that some of their students > attend. If we get 25 attendees, that's only $2 a person to pay for > the room. Perhaps someone can negotiate us back into NSCC with the > understanding that it will be every 2nd Saturday of the month, no > exceptions. I think that we will never have less than a dozen, and > after routine is set up, there will probably be more. Rather than > kick in for communal food, I think kicking-in to pay for the room is a > better use of our money. Those who are hungry can bring their own > snacks; no worries about veggies or not. > > On to the education part of the discussion. I would gladly pay if the meetings were to return to NSCC. I don't fancy driving downtown and paying for parking or spend hours on the bus. -- Travis in Shoreline Washington From steven_coles at yahoo.com Tue Nov 18 17:01:07 2008 From: steven_coles at yahoo.com (Michael_Faraday) Date: Tue Nov 18 16:58:01 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Meeting Location In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <939274.70894.qm@web36402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> All, Any chance of an occasional meeting in the Third-Place Commons (food court) at the Lake Forest Park Town Center Mall? The up side includes lots of free parking, variety of foods, free Wi-Fi, a chance to show Linux to curious by passers. and a bookstore where new converts can buy books with hot-boot and install disks included. The down side includes few outlets. If we brought extension cords, we'd have to check with the management and provide \walk-over strips. Steven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081118/e2c9dd07/attachment.htm From chronomex at gmail.com Tue Nov 18 17:52:11 2008 From: chronomex at gmail.com (Duncan Smith) Date: Tue Nov 18 17:49:01 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] FW: gslug In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20081119015210.GA14067@5.7.5.5.6.6.6.6.0.2.1.e164.arpa> On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 04:29:04PM -0800, Travis wrote: > I would gladly pay if the meetings were to return to NSCC. And I probably wouldn't even be able to come. I for one prefer for it to be somewhere downtown. North Seattle is entirely too far. From my house there are four buses that go downtown, taking between ten and twenty minutes for total trip time. North Seattle CC, on the other hand, is two buses and the trip takes approximately 50 minutes, according to Trip Planner. If you really care that much, I can bring a map and we can plot dots and circles on it at the next meeting to pick the truly better location. That'd be the most fair choice, yes? Much better than flaming each other out on the interwebs. > I don't fancy driving downtown and paying for parking or spend hours > on the bus. Downtown is only one bus from almost everywhere in the county that has bus service; riders from some areas way out east (the Sammammish plateau, for instance) may have to transfer once or perhaps even twice. For what it's worth, I don't fancy spending an hour (literally) on the bus to go to NSCC. How long does it _actually_ take on the bus to get downtown from where you live? I wouldn't mind alternating locations. Anything so long that we don't have to have this tiresome discussion again, really. -- Duncan in the City of Seattle .oO0Oo. O _-_ O _____ O | | O /_,-,_\ Duncan B. Smith O /__ __\ O / @ \ +1 206-279-2659 O - O +-----+ ??OOO?? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081118/2acfc615/attachment-0001.pgp From btm at loftninjas.org Tue Nov 18 18:05:28 2008 From: btm at loftninjas.org (Bryan McLellan) Date: Tue Nov 18 18:02:21 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Meeting Location In-Reply-To: <939274.70894.qm@web36402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <939274.70894.qm@web36402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <893823750811181805s4b8feaf0wcbfaef19de70d00c@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 5:01 PM, Michael_Faraday wrote: > Any chance of an occasional meeting in the Third-Place Commons (food court) > at the Lake Forest Park Town Center Mall? The biggest downside about this is the location itself. It looks about 30-45 minutes by bus. It's 12 miles from downtown Seattle, quite a haul for those of use who prefer to bike whenever possible. NSCC was only 7 miles but public transit was just as bad. We all have different priorities but a location that is easily accessible without driving is one of my highest. Large spaces are difficult to find downtown, maybe something at SCCC or UW could be arranged by someone more motivated than myself. Bryan From davidm777 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 18 17:58:58 2008 From: davidm777 at yahoo.com (David) Date: Tue Nov 18 18:02:35 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] FW: gslug In-Reply-To: <20081119015210.GA14067@5.7.5.5.6.6.6.6.0.2.1.e164.arpa> Message-ID: <250693.62814.qm@web53712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I concur on the map idea.? It's two transfers and two hours by bus from my place (one way)? But that's moot if we don't have a real clue as to where everyone is actually coming from! David --- On Tue, 11/18/08, Duncan Smith wrote: From: Duncan Smith Subject: Re: [Gslug-general] FW: gslug To: "Travis" Cc: gslug-general@gslug.org Date: Tuesday, November 18, 2008, 5:52 PM On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 04:29:04PM -0800, Travis wrote: > I would gladly pay if the meetings were to return to NSCC. And I probably wouldn't even be able to come. I for one prefer for it to be somewhere downtown. North Seattle is entirely too far. >From my house there are four buses that go downtown, taking between ten and twenty minutes for total trip time. North Seattle CC, on the other hand, is two buses and the trip takes approximately 50 minutes, according to Trip Planner. If you really care that much, I can bring a map and we can plot dots and circles on it at the next meeting to pick the truly better location. That'd be the most fair choice, yes? Much better than flaming each other out on the interwebs. > I don't fancy driving downtown and paying for parking or spend hours > on the bus. Downtown is only one bus from almost everywhere in the county that has bus service; riders from some areas way out east (the Sammammish plateau, for instance) may have to transfer once or perhaps even twice. For what it's worth, I don't fancy spending an hour (literally) on the bus to go to NSCC. How long does it _actually_ take on the bus to get downtown from where you live? I wouldn't mind alternating locations. Anything so long that we don't have to have this tiresome discussion again, really. -- Duncan in the City of Seattle .oO0Oo. O _-_ O _____ O | | O /_,-,_\ Duncan B. Smith O /__ __\ O / @ \ +1 206-279-2659 O - O +-----+ ??OOO?? _______________________________________________ Gslug-general mailing list Gslug-general@gslug.org http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081118/556f3c54/attachment.htm From paul-bartell at ubuntu.com Tue Nov 18 18:08:48 2008 From: paul-bartell at ubuntu.com (Paul Bartell) Date: Tue Nov 18 18:05:42 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] FW: gslug In-Reply-To: <250693.62814.qm@web53712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <20081119015210.GA14067@5.7.5.5.6.6.6.6.0.2.1.e164.arpa> <250693.62814.qm@web53712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2b5bab0f0811181808g4f6c27bem3e3e32e63463f92b@mail.gmail.com> NSCC is plainly hard to get to. Have we considered a library (the northgate library? seems pretty close to lots of bus lines). But i concur with the map idea. Lets do that. On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 5:58 PM, David wrote: > I concur on the map idea. It's two transfers and two hours by bus from my > place (one way) But that's moot if we don't have a real clue as to where > everyone is actually coming from! > > David > > --- On Tue, 11/18/08, Duncan Smith wrote: > > From: Duncan Smith > Subject: Re: [Gslug-general] FW: gslug > To: "Travis" > Cc: gslug-general@gslug.org > Date: Tuesday, November 18, 2008, 5:52 PM > > On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 04:29:04PM -0800, Travis wrote: >> I would gladly pay if the meetings were to return to NSCC. > > And I probably wouldn't even be able to come. I for one prefer for it > to be somewhere downtown. North Seattle is > entirely too far. > > From my house there are four buses that go downtown, taking between > ten and twenty minutes for total trip time. North Seattle CC, on the > other hand, is two buses and the trip takes approximately 50 minutes, > according to Trip Planner. > > If you really care that much, I can bring a map and we can plot dots > and circles on it at the next meeting to pick the truly better > location. That'd be the most fair choice, yes? Much better than > flaming each other out on the interwebs. > >> I don't fancy driving downtown and paying for parking or spend hours >> on the bus. > > Downtown is only one bus from almost everywhere in the county that has > bus service; riders from some areas way out east (the Sammammish > plateau, for instance) may have to transfer once or perhaps even > twice. > > For what it's worth, I don't fancy spending an hour (literally) on the > bus to go to NSCC. How long does it > _actually_ take on the bus to get > downtown from where you live? > > I wouldn't mind alternating locations. > > Anything so long that we don't have to have this tiresome discussion > again, really. > > -- > Duncan in the City of Seattle > > .oO0Oo. > O _-_ O _____ > O | | O /_,-,_\ Duncan B. Smith > O /__ __\ O / @ \ +1 206-279-2659 > O - O +-----+ > ??OOO?? > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > -- Random quote of the week/month/whenever i get to updating it: "Opportunity knocked. My doorman threw him out." - Adrienne Gusoff "At school you don't get parole, good behavior only brings a longer sentence." - The History Boys From jtg at intarcorp.com Tue Nov 18 18:10:48 2008 From: jtg at intarcorp.com (Jeremiah T. Gray) Date: Tue Nov 18 18:08:12 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] FW: gslug In-Reply-To: <20081119015210.GA14067@5.7.5.5.6.6.6.6.0.2.1.e164.arpa> References: <20081119015210.GA14067@5.7.5.5.6.6.6.6.0.2.1.e164.arpa> Message-ID: Maybe we should have multiple area groups that send representatives to a semi-annual centrally-located summit, which could be called Slugfest. If you're with me so far, I'd like to also suggest specific clothes, hand signs, and group colors so as to make each group's members readily identifiable in public. Going this route, it seems logical that each regional group would select a specific distro to use on its own turf. On Nov 18, 2008, at 5:52 PM, Duncan Smith wrote: > On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 04:29:04PM -0800, Travis wrote: >> I would gladly pay if the meetings were to return to NSCC. > > And I probably wouldn't even be able to come. I for one prefer for it > to be somewhere downtown. North Seattle is entirely too far. > > From my house there are four buses that go downtown, taking between > ten and twenty minutes for total trip time. North Seattle CC, on the > other hand, is two buses and the trip takes approximately 50 minutes, > according to Trip Planner. > > If you really care that much, I can bring a map and we can plot dots > and circles on it at the next meeting to pick the truly better > location. That'd be the most fair choice, yes? Much better than > flaming each other out on the interwebs. > >> I don't fancy driving downtown and paying for parking or spend hours >> on the bus. > > Downtown is only one bus from almost everywhere in the county that has > bus service; riders from some areas way out east (the Sammammish > plateau, for instance) may have to transfer once or perhaps even > twice. > > For what it's worth, I don't fancy spending an hour (literally) on the > bus to go to NSCC. How long does it _actually_ take on the bus to get > downtown from where you live? > > I wouldn't mind alternating locations. > > Anything so long that we don't have to have this tiresome discussion > again, really. > > -- > Duncan in the City of Seattle > > .oO0Oo. > O _-_ O _____ > O | | O /_,-,_\ Duncan B. Smith > O /__ __\ O / @ \ +1 206-279-2659 > O - O +-----+ > ??OOO?? > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general From jakykong at theanythingbox.com Tue Nov 18 18:17:09 2008 From: jakykong at theanythingbox.com (Jack T Mudge III) Date: Tue Nov 18 18:12:45 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] FW: gslug In-Reply-To: <20081119015210.GA14067@5.7.5.5.6.6.6.6.0.2.1.e164.arpa> References: <20081119015210.GA14067@5.7.5.5.6.6.6.6.0.2.1.e164.arpa> Message-ID: <200811181817.09875.jakykong@theanythingbox.com> On Tuesday 18 November 2008 05:52:11 pm Duncan Smith wrote: > I wouldn't mind alternating locations. > > Anything so long that we don't have to have this tiresome discussion > again, really. I must admit I agree here. GSLUG is about the only thing I'm ever in seattle for, and since it's also usually the only thing I do that day, it really doesn't matter to me where it is. But maybe a vote rather than an informal discussion would be more productive? -- Sincerely, Jack Mudge jakykong@theanythingbox.com From gray.andrew at comcast.net Tue Nov 18 18:24:14 2008 From: gray.andrew at comcast.net (Andrew Gray) Date: Tue Nov 18 18:21:08 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Meeting Location In-Reply-To: <893823750811181805s4b8feaf0wcbfaef19de70d00c@mail.gmail.com> References: <939274.70894.qm@web36402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <893823750811181805s4b8feaf0wcbfaef19de70d00c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1227061454.2861.4.camel@gina> Interesting for you to bring up SCCC, I go to school there. I'll search for who to speak with about renting weekend space there and costs, etc, and get back to the list probably Thursday with the info. --Andrew Gray On Tue, 2008-11-18 at 18:05 -0800, Bryan McLellan wrote: > On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 5:01 PM, Michael_Faraday wrote: > > Any chance of an occasional meeting in the Third-Place Commons (food court) > > at the Lake Forest Park Town Center Mall? > > The biggest downside about this is the location itself. It looks about > 30-45 minutes by bus. It's 12 miles from downtown Seattle, quite a > haul for those of use who prefer to bike whenever possible. NSCC was > only 7 miles but public transit was just as bad. > > We all have different priorities but a location that is easily > accessible without driving is one of my highest. Large spaces are > difficult to find downtown, maybe something at SCCC or UW could be > arranged by someone more motivated than myself. > > Bryan > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general From paul-bartell at ubuntu.com Tue Nov 18 18:24:59 2008 From: paul-bartell at ubuntu.com (Paul Bartell) Date: Tue Nov 18 18:21:57 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] FW: gslug In-Reply-To: References: <20081119015210.GA14067@5.7.5.5.6.6.6.6.0.2.1.e164.arpa> Message-ID: <2b5bab0f0811181824w5641b5a1i7cf39fac2f6242cc@mail.gmail.com> Problem with that is that we already have so few people coming to meetings. Further splitting up the group would make it even worse. On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 6:10 PM, Jeremiah T. Gray wrote: > Maybe we should have multiple area groups that send representatives to a > semi-annual centrally-located summit, which could be called Slugfest. If > you're with me so far, I'd like to also suggest specific clothes, hand > signs, and group colors so as to make each group's members readily > identifiable in public. Going this route, it seems logical that each > regional group would select a specific distro to use on its own turf. > > > > On Nov 18, 2008, at 5:52 PM, Duncan Smith wrote: > >> On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 04:29:04PM -0800, Travis wrote: >>> >>> I would gladly pay if the meetings were to return to NSCC. >> >> And I probably wouldn't even be able to come. I for one prefer for it >> to be somewhere downtown. North Seattle is entirely too far. >> >> From my house there are four buses that go downtown, taking between >> ten and twenty minutes for total trip time. North Seattle CC, on the >> other hand, is two buses and the trip takes approximately 50 minutes, >> according to Trip Planner. >> >> If you really care that much, I can bring a map and we can plot dots >> and circles on it at the next meeting to pick the truly better >> location. That'd be the most fair choice, yes? Much better than >> flaming each other out on the interwebs. >> >>> I don't fancy driving downtown and paying for parking or spend hours >>> on the bus. >> >> Downtown is only one bus from almost everywhere in the county that has >> bus service; riders from some areas way out east (the Sammammish >> plateau, for instance) may have to transfer once or perhaps even >> twice. >> >> For what it's worth, I don't fancy spending an hour (literally) on the >> bus to go to NSCC. How long does it _actually_ take on the bus to get >> downtown from where you live? >> >> I wouldn't mind alternating locations. >> >> Anything so long that we don't have to have this tiresome discussion >> again, really. >> >> -- >> Duncan in the City of Seattle >> >> .oO0Oo. >> O _-_ O _____ >> O | | O /_,-,_\ Duncan B. Smith >> O /__ __\ O / @ \ +1 206-279-2659 >> O - O +-----+ >> ??OOO?? >> _______________________________________________ >> Gslug-general mailing list >> Gslug-general@gslug.org >> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > -- Random quote of the week/month/whenever i get to updating it: "Opportunity knocked. My doorman threw him out." - Adrienne Gusoff "At school you don't get parole, good behavior only brings a longer sentence." - The History Boys From chronomex at gmail.com Tue Nov 18 18:33:26 2008 From: chronomex at gmail.com (Duncan Smith) Date: Tue Nov 18 18:30:12 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] FW: gslug In-Reply-To: <200811181817.09875.jakykong@theanythingbox.com> References: <20081119015210.GA14067@5.7.5.5.6.6.6.6.0.2.1.e164.arpa> <200811181817.09875.jakykong@theanythingbox.com> Message-ID: <20081119023325.GB14067@5.7.5.5.6.6.6.6.0.2.1.e164.arpa> On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 06:17:09PM -0800, Jack T Mudge III wrote: > But maybe a vote rather than an informal discussion would be more > productive? Aye. I suppose the map it is then. -- .oO0Oo. O _-_ O _____ O | | O /_,-,_\ Duncan B. Smith O /__ __\ O / @ \ +1 206-279-2659 O - O +-----+ ??OOO?? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081118/b63f1ff2/attachment.pgp From jamesthefishy at gmail.com Tue Nov 18 18:59:46 2008 From: jamesthefishy at gmail.com (James Michael) Date: Tue Nov 18 18:56:46 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Meeting Location In-Reply-To: <893823750811181805s4b8feaf0wcbfaef19de70d00c@mail.gmail.com> References: <939274.70894.qm@web36402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <893823750811181805s4b8feaf0wcbfaef19de70d00c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49238122.10404@gmail.com> How come we don't just have more then one meeting a month. I think if we find a north Seattle, Seattle and South Seattle locations or any other that suites a good amount of peoples needs then I would encourage people to go. No matter if I can't. Maybe just have meet ups and meetings where meet ups are more of a loose socialization of Linuxers then have meetings where all the speeches happen. Bryan McLellan wrote: > On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 5:01 PM, Michael_Faraday wrote: > >> Any chance of an occasional meeting in the Third-Place Commons (food court) >> at the Lake Forest Park Town Center Mall? >> > > The biggest downside about this is the location itself. It looks about > 30-45 minutes by bus. It's 12 miles from downtown Seattle, quite a > haul for those of use who prefer to bike whenever possible. NSCC was > only 7 miles but public transit was just as bad. > > We all have different priorities but a location that is easily > accessible without driving is one of my highest. Large spaces are > difficult to find downtown, maybe something at SCCC or UW could be > arranged by someone more motivated than myself. > > Bryan > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > > From btm at loftninjas.org Tue Nov 18 19:07:06 2008 From: btm at loftninjas.org (Bryan McLellan) Date: Tue Nov 18 19:04:01 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Meeting Location In-Reply-To: <49238122.10404@gmail.com> References: <939274.70894.qm@web36402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <893823750811181805s4b8feaf0wcbfaef19de70d00c@mail.gmail.com> <49238122.10404@gmail.com> Message-ID: <893823750811181907u4c9f514cg6d6d239c71bdfe6f@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 6:59 PM, James Michael wrote: > How come we don't just have more then one meeting a month. > As someone else mentioned there's relatively limited attendance as it is. Forking the meeting risks it dying off again. Also, it is difficult to get people to present with the size of the current group. I believe the best course of action is continuing to have the monthly meeting as central as possible and those who have interest in side projects or meeting in other places to take it upon themselves to organize and announce these get-togethers at a cafe. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081118/6e30c109/attachment.htm From jamesthefishy at gmail.com Tue Nov 18 20:00:08 2008 From: jamesthefishy at gmail.com (james michael) Date: Tue Nov 18 19:56:37 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Meeting Location In-Reply-To: <893823750811181907u4c9f514cg6d6d239c71bdfe6f@mail.gmail.com> References: <939274.70894.qm@web36402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <893823750811181805s4b8feaf0wcbfaef19de70d00c@mail.gmail.com> <49238122.10404@gmail.com> <893823750811181907u4c9f514cg6d6d239c71bdfe6f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49238F48.9030503@gmail.com> Hmm, maybe we could try branching out to other organizations like digital bridge technology academy and The Komputer Enthusiasts of Greater Seattle to work with people and get more attendances... There are a lot of greater seattle organizations that help out the community, we should try having a few events with them. Bryan McLellan wrote: > On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 6:59 PM, James Michael > > wrote: > > How come we don't just have more then one meeting a month. > > > As someone else mentioned there's relatively limited attendance as it > is. Forking the meeting risks it dying off again. Also, it is > difficult to get people to present with the size of the current group. > I believe the best course of action is continuing to have the monthly > meeting as central as possible and those who have interest in side > projects or meeting in other places to take it upon themselves to > organize and announce these get-togethers at a cafe. > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jamesthefishy.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 127 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081118/09d15c62/jamesthefishy.vcf From john_re at fastmail.us Tue Nov 18 20:22:30 2008 From: john_re at fastmail.us (john_re) Date: Tue Nov 18 20:19:25 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Fwd: OT NOW-Tonight- Join VOIP BALUG conference online, OpenMoko Neo Phone topic Message-ID: <1227068550.19013.1285563999@webmail.messagingengine.com> You might want to listen in live to the BALUG.org meeting for the next hour or so. We are working now on the first ever VOIP conference for a BALUG meeting. You can listen in two ways: 1) using a VOIP phone like Ekiga from your computer over the internet, 2) by dialing into the voip server with a regular phone there is no cost for the server. If you have free calling to 605 area code you can connect for free also. Join us on IRC freenode.net #BALUG for the full details. The speaker will likely talk for about 1 hour, beginning about 8PM or 815PM. This is a "first time, best efforts, experimetal basis, #1 learn something, #2 maybe it will work" basis effort. Hope you can join us in this next hour or so. I hope this isn't too OT for this list. Just thought someone here might enjoy this. From technoshaman at liawol.org Tue Nov 18 20:38:44 2008 From: technoshaman at liawol.org (Glenn Stone) Date: Tue Nov 18 20:35:39 2008 Subject: Teleconferencing (ws: Re: [Gslug-general] Fwd: OT NOW-Tonight- Join VOIP BALUG...) In-Reply-To: <1227068550.19013.1285563999@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1227068550.19013.1285563999@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <20081119043844.GQ28424@liawol.org> On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 08:22:30PM -0800, john_re wrote: >You might want to listen in live to the BALUG.org meeting for the next >hour or so. [meeting broadcast over VOIP] >I hope this isn't too OT for this list. Just thought someone here might >enjoy this. Well, that's kind of interesting. Not the first org I've heard of doing this, either; there's a Lexington SF club that netcasts its meetings in video (they use a Mac), and the UK floating filk (science fiction folk music) convention has a streaming audio feed. The latter I think uses all open source tools. That could well solve or at least mitigate some of the pain of folks busing it hither and yon. What it would take is a server with some pretty healthy bandwidth, either from a venue willing to host, or from someplace with fat pipes, and we do a compressed upload feed from the venue. F'rinstance, Northgate Library has a good feed up, but it's firewalled; stream that out to someplace in the Westin or a one-hop-off colo (XO, Qwest Tukwila, ATT Lynnwood, AboveNet) and cybercast away. While we're thinking about it, I would second the idea of Northgate Library; while it's still in the same general area as NSCC, it's much better served; not only do you have 5 and 16, but you have a whole plethora of stuff that runs to Northgate TC directly, including the 41, which is express from downtown (and if you stay on stops directly in front of the library). I can't vouch for the parking for next month, it being That Time of the Year, but the other 10 or 11 months, it's a slam dunk... libraries have their own wireless, wide open, fat pipes, and if somebody brought a wrt54GL or equivalent configured in client mode, we could have wired connections too. -- Glenn From aonoraha at gmail.com Tue Nov 18 21:50:01 2008 From: aonoraha at gmail.com (Aaron Appelbaum) Date: Tue Nov 18 21:46:55 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Meeting Location In-Reply-To: <893823750811181805s4b8feaf0wcbfaef19de70d00c@mail.gmail.com> References: <939274.70894.qm@web36402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <893823750811181805s4b8feaf0wcbfaef19de70d00c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <90312f880811182150k367d8a63obc85743e37634b26@mail.gmail.com> How about South Seattle Community College (in West Seattle)? It is easily reached by the 125 bus and has plenty of parking. Did I mention it's a block away from my house? On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 6:05 PM, Bryan McLellan wrote: > On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 5:01 PM, Michael_Faraday wrote: >> Any chance of an occasional meeting in the Third-Place Commons (food court) >> at the Lake Forest Park Town Center Mall? > > The biggest downside about this is the location itself. It looks about > 30-45 minutes by bus. It's 12 miles from downtown Seattle, quite a > haul for those of use who prefer to bike whenever possible. NSCC was > only 7 miles but public transit was just as bad. > > We all have different priorities but a location that is easily > accessible without driving is one of my highest. Large spaces are > difficult to find downtown, maybe something at SCCC or UW could be > arranged by someone more motivated than myself. > > Bryan > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > From jtg at intarcorp.com Tue Nov 18 21:55:13 2008 From: jtg at intarcorp.com (Jeremiah T. Gray) Date: Tue Nov 18 21:52:35 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Meeting Location In-Reply-To: <90312f880811182150k367d8a63obc85743e37634b26@mail.gmail.com> References: <939274.70894.qm@web36402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <893823750811181805s4b8feaf0wcbfaef19de70d00c@mail.gmail.com> <90312f880811182150k367d8a63obc85743e37634b26@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: West Seattle?! May as well meet in Bellevue ;) On Nov 18, 2008, at 9:50 PM, Aaron Appelbaum wrote: > How about South Seattle Community College (in West Seattle)? It is > easily reached by the 125 bus and has plenty of parking. > > Did I mention it's a block away from my house? > > On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 6:05 PM, Bryan McLellan > wrote: >> On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 5:01 PM, Michael_Faraday >> wrote: >>> Any chance of an occasional meeting in the Third-Place Commons >>> (food court) >>> at the Lake Forest Park Town Center Mall? >> >> The biggest downside about this is the location itself. It looks >> about >> 30-45 minutes by bus. It's 12 miles from downtown Seattle, quite a >> haul for those of use who prefer to bike whenever possible. NSCC was >> only 7 miles but public transit was just as bad. >> >> We all have different priorities but a location that is easily >> accessible without driving is one of my highest. Large spaces are >> difficult to find downtown, maybe something at SCCC or UW could be >> arranged by someone more motivated than myself. >> >> Bryan >> _______________________________________________ >> Gslug-general mailing list >> Gslug-general@gslug.org >> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general >> > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general From pencil_pusher at hotmail.com Tue Nov 18 22:16:18 2008 From: pencil_pusher at hotmail.com (David Hamilton) Date: Tue Nov 18 22:13:15 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Gslug represents In-Reply-To: <2b5bab0f0811181824w5641b5a1i7cf39fac2f6242cc@mail.gmail.com> References: <20081119015210.GA14067@5.7.5.5.6.6.6.6.0.2.1.e164.arpa> <2b5bab0f0811181824w5641b5a1i7cf39fac2f6242cc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I think that was a bit of humor he was having there. Something like gangs and turf wars. Where one side gets pissed when the blues come in their hood, so they pull out their nines and tell those punk-a** fedora bit**** to get back to their own turf. Put away their nines, grab their forties and pay homage to the orange graffiti lining their neighborhood. ;) > > > Problem with that is that we already have so few people coming to > meetings. Further splitting up the group would make it even worse. > > On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 6:10 PM, Jeremiah T. Gray wrote: > > Maybe we should have multiple area groups that send representatives to a > > semi-annual centrally-located summit, which could be called Slugfest. If > > you're with me so far, I'd like to also suggest specific clothes, hand > > signs, and group colors so as to make each group's members readily > > identifiable in public. Going this route, it seems logical that each > > regional group would select a specific distro to use on its own turf. > > > _________________________________________________________________ Color coding for safety: Windows Live Hotmail alerts you to suspicious email. http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_safety_112008 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081118/fb58a57d/attachment.htm From jtg at intarcorp.com Tue Nov 18 22:22:54 2008 From: jtg at intarcorp.com (Jeremiah T. Gray) Date: Tue Nov 18 22:20:15 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Re: Gslug represents In-Reply-To: References: <20081119015210.GA14067@5.7.5.5.6.6.6.6.0.2.1.e164.arpa> <2b5bab0f0811181824w5641b5a1i7cf39fac2f6242cc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Thank you! I was wondering if I had found a humor-free zone. In my proposed models, the shorties do installs and report back if the hardware gives them trouble. Each group--or gang--would have a box setup on a public IP, and we'd have an ongoing game of capture the flag. Anyway, if anyone wants to join the Fremont Fraggers, do hit me up. We're currently looking for a tougher sounding name. :) On Nov 18, 2008, at 10:16 PM, David Hamilton wrote: > I think that was a bit of humor he was having there. Something > like gangs and turf wars. Where one side gets pissed when the > blues come in their hood, so they pull out their nines and tell > those punk-a** fedora bit**** to get back to their own turf. Put > away their nines, grab their forties and pay homage to the orange > graffiti lining their neighborhood. ;) > > > > > > > Problem with that is that we already have so few people coming to > > meetings. Further splitting up the group would make it even worse. > > > > On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 6:10 PM, Jeremiah T. Gray > wrote: > > > Maybe we should have multiple area groups that send > representatives to a > > > semi-annual centrally-located summit, which could be called > Slugfest. If > > > you're with me so far, I'd like to also suggest specific > clothes, hand > > > signs, and group colors so as to make each group's members readily > > > identifiable in public. Going this route, it seems logical that > each > > > regional group would select a specific distro to use on its own > turf. > > > > > > > Color coding for safety: Windows Live Hotmail alerts you to > suspicious email. Sign up today. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081118/2c15add8/attachment.html From aonoraha at gmail.com Tue Nov 18 23:11:47 2008 From: aonoraha at gmail.com (Aaron Appelbaum) Date: Tue Nov 18 23:08:41 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Meeting Location In-Reply-To: References: <939274.70894.qm@web36402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <893823750811181805s4b8feaf0wcbfaef19de70d00c@mail.gmail.com> <90312f880811182150k367d8a63obc85743e37634b26@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <90312f880811182311o69c2410an68ec2721bb38c717@mail.gmail.com> That is true, West Seattle is only convenient for those who live there. Did you know that SSCC has an arboretum? How great would it be to have a meeting at a rock garden? On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 9:55 PM, Jeremiah T. Gray wrote: > West Seattle?! May as well meet in Bellevue ;) > > > On Nov 18, 2008, at 9:50 PM, Aaron Appelbaum wrote: > >> How about South Seattle Community College (in West Seattle)? It is >> easily reached by the 125 bus and has plenty of parking. >> >> Did I mention it's a block away from my house? >> >> On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 6:05 PM, Bryan McLellan >> wrote: >>> >>> On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 5:01 PM, Michael_Faraday >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Any chance of an occasional meeting in the Third-Place Commons (food >>>> court) >>>> at the Lake Forest Park Town Center Mall? >>> >>> The biggest downside about this is the location itself. It looks about >>> 30-45 minutes by bus. It's 12 miles from downtown Seattle, quite a >>> haul for those of use who prefer to bike whenever possible. NSCC was >>> only 7 miles but public transit was just as bad. >>> >>> We all have different priorities but a location that is easily >>> accessible without driving is one of my highest. Large spaces are >>> difficult to find downtown, maybe something at SCCC or UW could be >>> arranged by someone more motivated than myself. >>> >>> Bryan >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Gslug-general mailing list >>> Gslug-general@gslug.org >>> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Gslug-general mailing list >> Gslug-general@gslug.org >> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > > From jarod at wilsonet.com Wed Nov 19 11:28:48 2008 From: jarod at wilsonet.com (Jarod Wilson) Date: Wed Nov 19 11:22:46 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Gslug represents In-Reply-To: References: <20081119015210.GA14067@5.7.5.5.6.6.6.6.0.2.1.e164.arpa> <2b5bab0f0811181824w5641b5a1i7cf39fac2f6242cc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1227122928.16563.9.camel@xenon.bos.redhat.com> On Tue, 2008-11-18 at 22:16 -0800, David Hamilton wrote: > I think that was a bit of humor he was having there. Something like > gangs and turf wars. Where one side gets pissed when the blues come > in their hood, so they pull out their nines and tell those punk-a** > fedora bit**** to get back to their own turf. Put away their nines, > grab their forties and pay homage to the orange graffiti lining their > neighborhood. ;) Hm... This could get very confusing. Sure, I prefer blue, but I'm also a big fan of red (gotta get paid). Both the blue and green gangs have red gang leaders... --jarod > > Problem with that is that we already have so few people coming to > > meetings. Further splitting up the group would make it even worse. > > > > On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 6:10 PM, Jeremiah T. Gray > wrote: > > > Maybe we should have multiple area groups that send > representatives to a > > > semi-annual centrally-located summit, which could be called > Slugfest. If > > > you're with me so far, I'd like to also suggest specific clothes, > hand > > > signs, and group colors so as to make each group's members readily > > > identifiable in public. Going this route, it seems logical that > each > > > regional group would select a specific distro to use on its own turf. From btm at loftninjas.org Wed Nov 19 11:32:32 2008 From: btm at loftninjas.org (Bryan McLellan) Date: Wed Nov 19 11:29:27 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Re: Gslug represents In-Reply-To: References: <20081119015210.GA14067@5.7.5.5.6.6.6.6.0.2.1.e164.arpa> <2b5bab0f0811181824w5641b5a1i7cf39fac2f6242cc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <893823750811191132y27b9d8dfg4c3efa6ef802b1ee@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 10:22 PM, Jeremiah T. Gray wrote: > Thank you! I was wondering if I had found a humor-free zone. In my > proposed models, the shorties do installs and report back if the hardware > gives them trouble. Each group--or gang--would have a box setup on a public > IP, and we'd have an ongoing game of capture the flag. Anyway, if anyone > wants to join the Fremont Fraggers, do hit me up. We're currently looking > for a tougher sounding name. :) I was debating at the time about bringing up the time we had a four person SWN + PTP summit in Portland and starting naming the strippers after distributions... From jamesthefishy at gmail.com Wed Nov 19 11:35:05 2008 From: jamesthefishy at gmail.com (James Michael) Date: Wed Nov 19 11:32:04 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Gslug represents In-Reply-To: <1227122928.16563.9.camel@xenon.bos.redhat.com> References: <20081119015210.GA14067@5.7.5.5.6.6.6.6.0.2.1.e164.arpa> <2b5bab0f0811181824w5641b5a1i7cf39fac2f6242cc@mail.gmail.com> <1227122928.16563.9.camel@xenon.bos.redhat.com> Message-ID: <49246A69.7070602@gmail.com> There is a green gang now? I know of the blue guys and the red guys... One loves biggy and one loves tupac or something right? I dunno, everytime I ask anyone why are there gangs and why do they fight they just look at me and go... Well ask someone whose in a gang. Jarod Wilson wrote: > On Tue, 2008-11-18 at 22:16 -0800, David Hamilton wrote: > >> I think that was a bit of humor he was having there. Something like >> gangs and turf wars. Where one side gets pissed when the blues come >> in their hood, so they pull out their nines and tell those punk-a** >> fedora bit**** to get back to their own turf. Put away their nines, >> grab their forties and pay homage to the orange graffiti lining their >> neighborhood. ;) >> > > Hm... This could get very confusing. Sure, I prefer blue, but I'm also a > big fan of red (gotta get paid). Both the blue and green gangs have red > gang leaders... > > --jarod > > > >>> Problem with that is that we already have so few people coming to >>> meetings. Further splitting up the group would make it even worse. >>> >>> On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 6:10 PM, Jeremiah T. Gray >>> >> wrote: >> >>>> Maybe we should have multiple area groups that send >>>> >> representatives to a >> >>>> semi-annual centrally-located summit, which could be called >>>> >> Slugfest. If >> >>>> you're with me so far, I'd like to also suggest specific clothes, >>>> >> hand >> >>>> signs, and group colors so as to make each group's members readily >>>> identifiable in public. Going this route, it seems logical that >>>> >> each >> >>>> regional group would select a specific distro to use on its own turf. >>>> > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > > From kmeyer at blarg.net Wed Nov 19 13:54:13 2008 From: kmeyer at blarg.net (Ken Meyer) Date: Wed Nov 19 13:51:07 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] FW: gslug In-Reply-To: <20081119015210.GA14067@5.7.5.5.6.6.6.6.0.2.1.e164.arpa> Message-ID: Duncan et al -- I haven't noticed any significant flames associated with this discussion of venue. I did disagree with one of Eric's observations on the way meetings at NSCC had progressed, at least "traditionally", but there has been no personal rancor or rudeness involved. I'm glad that the message from Harvey Friedman that I forwarded was finally able to ignite this discussion after Eric had expressed frustration that his input had evoked none at all. Look, I know that many of you probably view my comments negatively, as I appear to be a "wet blanket", both on the refurb-the-computers initiative and the selection of venues. I totally support both of these activities, but be aware that nothing that has been proposed on either subject is new; all have been addressed ad infinitum in the past. Ergo, I am only trying to keep you all from wasting effort in "reinventing the wheel" or naively "walking into a swinging door". I am trying to illuminate where some of the difficulties have been experienced in the past so you can try to avoid them, or be prepared with new approaches to address them going in. Things change, and in no case have all of the meeting venues in a given category been investigated. Go for it, but understand that commitment to expending significant outside effort and taking-on responsibility is a requirement. Unfortunately, many of you are willing to come sit in meetings that others have created but are too apathetic to provide such commitment and consistent effort over some defined period like a year. That is, in fact, what drove GSLUG into its dormant period. We still had a consistent 25 attendees, but when I needed to step back from being virtually the sole organizer, no one would step up to accept the responsibility on a consistent basis, so I finally had to just walk away in great disappointment that I had not been able to energize the group. Some points about meeting location: This discussion has been about suitability of venue, and it seems to me that an inadequate venue is not a winner, even if it is in your front yard. Selecting a venue via some "center of gravity" measure of the distances "as the crow flies" from potential attendees' homes may be too simplistic, as none of us fly with the crows (do we?). The CG of "time to the meeting" is really what you want to optimize, I think, and that could be quite different, especially given bus routes and frequency of service, if that is a major mode of transportation for attendees who come from afar. This is sort of a chicken-and-egg situation. Traditionally, we have searched for a location and seized on it with gratitude and relief. Using some measure of convenience of access to the location might be a way to start, but then you have to actually find a venue in that area that is convenient to transportation. Good luck with that. I have also been involved in other groups who periodically lose their meeting venue, and finding a new suitable one is a real chore, even though most of these groups have less stringent requirements than GSLUG's for fulfilling desirable aspects of meetings. The fact is that, if you are annoyed by extended discussions of this subject, you can imagine how I feel after having gone round and round and round with it for YEARS. In the past, I actually wrote a check-list for desirable aspects for a meeting venue, but I can't find it now. All of the alternatives that have been mentioned in this flurry of messages has been investigated and has been found wanting for some serious reason. However, a few types of possible venues have not been seriously pursued, nor have every possibility in any category been investigated, so if someone is willing to do the work and put in substantial time, there is always the potential to find gold in them thar hills. For openers, you first define the objectives of the meeting and then define the desirable aspects of the space to support those objectives and then look for a convenient location. For instance, the Saturday time was selected to allow for meetings longer than two hours to accommodate the group chats and workshop elements, since week-night meetings are pretty well constrained to two hours, 7 PM to 9 PM. If you forego the latter features of a meeting, a wider choice of times may be feasible. By the way, the possibility of having separate lecture and workshop meetings was considered, but I have felt that it would be difficult to get the gurus to come out reliably to support a stand-alone workshop session that might or might not attract anyone having an appropriate issue for them to solve, whereas, if the guru was on-site for a meeting, he or she might well be induced to stay to provide help that was specifically requested. In the absence of the check-list, I would suggest that any venue be compared to NSCC as a standard, which, in my opinion at least, has offered every feature that was desirable other than it was not free. Even the location was considered a plus in the past, but it appears that it now may not be for some in the current group of attendees. In my recent message, I did cite some of the criteria that North provides, such as: adequate space, a dedicated room not shared with others, reliable availability at a choice of times, available for extended periods, available without security hassles (door-persons required at locked doors, etc.), connectivity, power, tables for workshop activities, abundant free parking, parking close-in for transporting computer gear to workshops, relatively good access to transit (via the Northgate Transit Plaza for NSCC), projector and workstation available in-place, whiteboards, seating good for note-taking, access to light refreshments for sale on-site (usually), potential connection to educational programs, decent access to venues for post-meeting eating and drinking... You may be willing to sacrifice some of these aspects of necessity, or because of low perceived priority, but I suggest that you should do that with full awareness of what is being lost. Potential categories of venues that, among others, I have personally investigated: Community centers: limited and not guaranteed consistent availability, surprisingly HIGH cost, no projectors, tables, etc. The Komputer Enthusiasts of Greater Seattle (KEGS) seems to have continued to be a going concern. Membership is largely, ah... mature. They obtain the use of the Bellevue Senior Center in return for RELIABLE, ongoing assistance to the Center's computer lab. This might also be possible at the Greenwood Senior Center or others, but both of these organizations are currently totally in the Windows domain. A thought to explore could be to become a Linux SIG under KEGS if they were up for it, but it is in North Bellevue. Libraries: May be free (not downtown, I believe, but should be checked), must wrestle with the kiddies story hour for access a month at a time; limited time-slots, none of the presentation or workshop features available except maybe wireless connectivity, sometimes unhelpful librarians. I have tried the Greenwood location and the Burien location in the past. King County library facilities seem generally to be somewhat better than Seattle's. SeaSLUG met at the Mercer Island Library, in a small room like a corporate conference room, before the organization became dormant. But, libraries may be worth a try because each location is potentially different. However, someone has to be willing to dedicate significant time to investigating and ranking each one. The Northgate Library is well located, a few blocks from the Northgate Transit Center. NSCC is well served from the NTC, but it does involve a transfer with the associated wait time that could be eliminated by using the library. Corporate Locations: You know about that: security hassles, space too large or too small, limited time availability especially on weekends, lack of workshop facilities, depends on an "inside advocate" who may move on; many venues have been tried by various SIGs I have attended and NONE were really what was desired. Other such venues tried by some group or another have included Amazon, Safeco in the U district (before they moved), Cobalt (?) in SODO, M$ campus (not Linux)...etc., etc. SCCC: This place could probably provide most, if not all, of NSCC's facility advantages if the administration were to be so inclined to provide them. However, one of GSLUG's previous participants was an IT employee there, and he reported that the administration was not sympathetic with providing space. It is also really out of the way for most folks. SVI (Seattle Vocational Institute): up the hill on Jackson. Pretty central location; GSLUG met there prior to moving to NSCC because the building was no longer open on Saturdays and we would have had to pay for the security person (much more than $50). Facilities not great but better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick. Seattle Central: Hasn't been tried to my knowledge; ugly parking, but good bus connection and centrally located. Potential infrastructure unknown. IT department has been known to be surly and paranoid about security, i.e. may not be able to plug into the system and may need an ID for even wireless access. Check it out. Bellevue CC: Not tried; maybe a possibility there. Look for a Unix/Linux course instructor. UW: SASAG (Unix Administrators Group) meets there. The meeting room is just fair and is available only because some of the group work at the U (most attendees are sys-ad pros), I was not able to generate any interest at all in getting support from these folks for a Linux group; we had the organizers meeting for "New GSLUG" in the library there, crammed into a small room, but getting a better one would require sponsorship by a club, I was told; The U had a Linux group some time ago, and there were some GSLUGers attending the school, but no group there ever got consistent traction. UW Tacoma: An intrepid student at this school was able to obtain free access to a classroom, which is great. From the website, they apparently have not met since September. I really don't understand why LUGs are in so much distress, just as Linux obtains wider appeal. High schools: None have been tried to my knowledge; may not be open on Saturdays or in evenings; which ones have computer curricula? KPLUG has met at Kitsap High School, where they have supported a Linux lab (and instruction?) and have friends on the faculty. Sadly, from their website: "KPLUG has suspended meetings due to lack of interest. Thanks for 10 years of supporting Linux." Boo-hoo -- really. Schools in general: For any school location, one really needs an advocate on the faculty or departmental administration just for openers, the best route to acceptance and free use is via connection to an official student club. This was tried at North, including once by Ian himself, but there has never been a sufficient number of students who would commit consistently to support a club to fulfill the school's criteria for recognizing an official club (I think 15 must sign a petition and reports on meetings must be supplied). Students have a lot on their minds and are not generally reliable advocates -- and who needs another lecture or lab session :-) Best is to have a faculty member who will go to bat for you. North's Linux instructor advertised our meetings very well, but was very wimpy about confronting the administration about giving us a free pass. Restaurants and Third Place Books: Virtually no infrastructure in place, relatively few have dedicated rooms available and most who have dedicated rooms rent them for very high rates for commercial meetings, or at the least, demand that all users buy food, time-slots are limited, meetings in open areas are exercises in futility because those at the periphery of groups of more than a dozen can't hear, or if they can, the audio level will bother others (tried Northgate Food Court, a Thai place downtown...) Small sub-group meetings for chats have been initiated at restaurants in the past and could be marginally feasible, but interest would wane or the organizer would fade or both. Barnes and Noble: There is a sort of stealth Linux group that meets at the Bellevue B&N. I don't know whether Northgate, Southcenter, or Downtown branches have rooms, or how much demand exists for them, or what their scheduling parameters are. Of course, it's just a bare room and I bet not very large. Could be investigated. Bus travel: I can get from North Seattle to a medical appointment on First Hill by car in 15 - 20 minutes, unless the freeway is totally slammed and the Express Lane is going the wrong way. By bus, even via the 358 and 2 lines, which are two of the most heavily scheduled routes, is typically an hour, portal-to-portal. All bus service is totally pathetic time-wise, unless the bus stops virtually in front of your house and no transfers are required. Even so, count on at least twice the driving time. I sympathize with anyone tied to bus transportation, but I don't see any venue that is going to be very convenient for all potential meeting attendees who may wish to ride the bus to them. Other thoughts: Sometimes, an official non-profit organization would get a better deal at a venue belonging to a government entity, but becoming a non-profit, even for recognition by just the state and not the feds, requires officers, reporting, etc. What are the chances for GSLUG doing that? When Seattle Wireless DOT NET was in its hey-day, they actually had an Internet video link and an IRC channel for remote folks to participate -- some from out of the area. Of course, cool as that was, it doesn't work to fulfill all of GSLUG's objectives, including break-out group discussions and workshops. I would be happy to discuss these subjects further with anyone, but I am still too involved in other efforts, such as broadband initiatives, saving Seattle's trees, and other governmental issues, as well as trying to get my life together in anticipation of declining capabilities as I age, to really spearhead any of these efforts. Someone needs to step-up to coordinate and put in a major part of the investigatory effort for either project to fly. That's just what I think, Ken Meyer -----Original Message----- From: gslug-general-bounces@gslug.org [mailto:gslug-general-bounces@gslug.org] On Behalf Of Duncan Smith Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 5:52 PM To: Travis Cc: gslug-general@gslug.org Subject: Re: [Gslug-general] FW: gslug On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 04:29:04PM -0800, Travis wrote: > I would gladly pay if the meetings were to return to NSCC. And I probably wouldn't even be able to come. I for one prefer for it to be somewhere downtown. North Seattle is entirely too far. >From my house there are four buses that go downtown, taking between ten and twenty minutes for total trip time. North Seattle CC, on the other hand, is two buses and the trip takes approximately 50 minutes, according to Trip Planner. If you really care that much, I can bring a map and we can plot dots and circles on it at the next meeting to pick the truly better location. That'd be the most fair choice, yes? Much better than flaming each other out on the interwebs. > I don't fancy driving downtown and paying for parking or spend hours > on the bus. Downtown is only one bus from almost everywhere in the county that has bus service; riders from some areas way out east (the Sammammish plateau, for instance) may have to transfer once or perhaps even twice. For what it's worth, I don't fancy spending an hour (literally) on the bus to go to NSCC. How long does it _actually_ take on the bus to get downtown from where you live? I wouldn't mind alternating locations. Anything so long that we don't have to have this tiresome discussion again, really. -- Duncan in the City of Seattle .oO0Oo. O _-_ O _____ O | | O /_,-,_\ Duncan B. Smith O /__ __\ O / @ \ +1 206-279-2659 O - O +-----+ ??OOO?? From pencil_pusher at hotmail.com Wed Nov 19 14:23:23 2008 From: pencil_pusher at hotmail.com (David) Date: Wed Nov 19 14:20:34 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] FW: gslug References: Message-ID: Don't hold back, Ken, tell us what you really think. ;) It's the nature of the beast for people to lose interest and seek something else, so I don't think anyone should be put off by the "long term requirement" ideas of others. Do what you can and move on. > Duncan et al -- From specifyparameters at gmail.com Wed Nov 19 15:13:00 2008 From: specifyparameters at gmail.com (Skye Manning) Date: Wed Nov 19 15:15:59 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] FW: gslug In-Reply-To: References: <20081119015210.GA14067@5.7.5.5.6.6.6.6.0.2.1.e164.arpa> Message-ID: <7db05a3c0811191513k219e2001q27224037b5c9fd1d@mail.gmail.com> thanks for sharing. i'd like to point out that SCCC == Seattle Central. -Skye (who thought NSCC was a great venue) On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 4:54 PM, Ken Meyer wrote: > Duncan et al -- > > I haven't noticed any significant flames associated with this discussion of > venue. I did disagree with one of Eric's observations on the way meetings > at NSCC had progressed, at least "traditionally", but there has been no > personal rancor or rudeness involved. I'm glad that the message from > Harvey > Friedman that I forwarded was finally able to ignite this discussion after > Eric had expressed frustration that his input had evoked none at all. > > Look, I know that many of you probably view my comments negatively, as I > appear to be a "wet blanket", both on the refurb-the-computers initiative > and the selection of venues. I totally support both of these activities, > but be aware that nothing that has been proposed on either subject is new; > all have been addressed ad infinitum in the past. Ergo, I am only trying > to > keep you all from wasting effort in "reinventing the wheel" or naively > "walking into a swinging door". I am trying to illuminate where some of > the > difficulties have been experienced in the past so you can try to avoid > them, > or be prepared with new approaches to address them going in. > > Things change, and in no case have all of the meeting venues in a given > category been investigated. Go for it, but understand that commitment to > expending significant outside effort and taking-on responsibility is a > requirement. Unfortunately, many of you are willing to come sit in > meetings > that others have created but are too apathetic to provide such commitment > and consistent effort over some defined period like a year. That is, in > fact, what drove GSLUG into its dormant period. We still had a consistent > 25 attendees, but when I needed to step back from being virtually the sole > organizer, no one would step up to accept the responsibility on a > consistent > basis, so I finally had to just walk away in great disappointment that I > had > not been able to energize the group. > > Some points about meeting location: > > This discussion has been about suitability of venue, and it seems to me > that > an inadequate venue is not a winner, even if it is in your front yard. > > Selecting a venue via some "center of gravity" measure of the distances "as > the crow flies" from potential attendees' homes may be too simplistic, as > none of us fly with the crows (do we?). The CG of "time to the meeting" is > really what you want to optimize, I think, and that could be quite > different, especially given bus routes and frequency of service, if that is > a major mode of transportation for attendees who come from afar. > > This is sort of a chicken-and-egg situation. Traditionally, we have > searched for a location and seized on it with gratitude and relief. Using > some measure of convenience of access to the location might be a way to > start, but then you have to actually find a venue in that area that is > convenient to transportation. Good luck with that. > > I have also been involved in other groups who periodically lose their > meeting venue, and finding a new suitable one is a real chore, even though > most of these groups have less stringent requirements than GSLUG's for > fulfilling desirable aspects of meetings. > > The fact is that, if you are annoyed by extended discussions of this > subject, you can imagine how I feel after having gone round and round and > round with it for YEARS. In the past, I actually wrote a check-list for > desirable aspects for a meeting venue, but I can't find it now. All of the > alternatives that have been mentioned in this flurry of messages has been > investigated and has been found wanting for some serious reason. However, > a > few types of possible venues have not been seriously pursued, nor have > every > possibility in any category been investigated, so if someone is willing to > do the work and put in substantial time, there is always the potential to > find gold in them thar hills. > > For openers, you first define the objectives of the meeting and then define > the desirable aspects of the space to support those objectives and then > look > for a convenient location. For instance, the Saturday time was selected to > allow for meetings longer than two hours to accommodate the group chats and > workshop elements, since week-night meetings are pretty well constrained to > two hours, 7 PM to 9 PM. If you forego the latter features of a meeting, a > wider choice of times may be feasible. > > By the way, the possibility of having separate lecture and workshop > meetings > was considered, but I have felt that it would be difficult to get the gurus > to come out reliably to support a stand-alone workshop session that might > or > might not attract anyone having an appropriate issue for them to solve, > whereas, if the guru was on-site for a meeting, he or she might well be > induced to stay to provide help that was specifically requested. > > In the absence of the check-list, I would suggest that any venue be > compared > to NSCC as a standard, which, in my opinion at least, has offered every > feature that was desirable other than it was not free. Even the location > was considered a plus in the past, but it appears that it now may not be > for > some in the current group of attendees. > > In my recent message, I did cite some of the criteria that North provides, > such as: > > adequate space, > > a dedicated room not shared with others, > > reliable availability at a choice of times, > > available for extended periods, > > available without security hassles (door-persons required at locked doors, > etc.), > > connectivity, > > power, > > tables for workshop activities, > > abundant free parking, > > parking close-in for transporting computer gear to workshops, > > relatively good access to transit (via the Northgate Transit Plaza for > NSCC), > > projector and workstation available in-place, > > whiteboards, > > seating good for note-taking, > > access to light refreshments for sale on-site (usually), > > potential connection to educational programs, > > decent access to venues for post-meeting eating and drinking... > > You may be willing to sacrifice some of these aspects of necessity, or > because of low perceived priority, but I suggest that you should do that > with full awareness of what is being lost. > > Potential categories of venues that, among others, I have personally > investigated: > > Community centers: limited and not guaranteed consistent availability, > surprisingly HIGH cost, no projectors, tables, etc. The Komputer > Enthusiasts of Greater Seattle (KEGS) seems to have continued to be a going > concern. Membership is largely, ah... mature. They obtain the use of the > Bellevue Senior Center in return for RELIABLE, ongoing assistance to the > Center's computer lab. This might also be possible at the Greenwood Senior > Center or others, but both of these organizations are currently totally in > the Windows domain. A thought to explore could be to become a Linux SIG > under KEGS if they were up for it, but it is in North Bellevue. > > Libraries: May be free (not downtown, I believe, but should be checked), > must wrestle with the kiddies story hour for access a month at a time; > limited time-slots, none of the presentation or workshop features available > except maybe wireless connectivity, sometimes unhelpful librarians. I have > tried the Greenwood location and the Burien location in the past. King > County library facilities seem generally to be somewhat better than > Seattle's. SeaSLUG met at the Mercer Island Library, in a small room like > a > corporate conference room, before the organization became dormant. But, > libraries may be worth a try because each location is potentially > different. > However, someone has to be willing to dedicate significant time to > investigating and ranking each one. The Northgate Library is well located, > a few blocks from the Northgate Transit Center. NSCC is well served from > the NTC, but it does involve a transfer with the associated wait time that > could be eliminated by using the library. > > Corporate Locations: You know about that: security hassles, space too large > or too small, limited time availability especially on weekends, lack of > workshop facilities, depends on an "inside advocate" who may move on; many > venues have been tried by various SIGs I have attended and NONE were really > what was desired. Other such venues tried by some group or another have > included Amazon, Safeco in the U district (before they moved), Cobalt (?) > in > SODO, M$ campus (not Linux)...etc., etc. > > SCCC: This place could probably provide most, if not all, of NSCC's > facility > advantages if the administration were to be so inclined to provide them. > However, one of GSLUG's previous participants was an IT employee there, and > he reported that the administration was not sympathetic with providing > space. It is also really out of the way for most folks. > > SVI (Seattle Vocational Institute): up the hill on Jackson. Pretty central > location; GSLUG met there prior to moving to NSCC because the building was > no longer open on Saturdays and we would have had to pay for the security > person (much more than $50). Facilities not great but better than a poke > in > the eye with a sharp stick. > > Seattle Central: Hasn't been tried to my knowledge; ugly parking, but good > bus connection and centrally located. Potential infrastructure unknown. > IT > department has been known to be surly and paranoid about security, i.e. may > not be able to plug into the system and may need an ID for even wireless > access. Check it out. > > Bellevue CC: Not tried; maybe a possibility there. Look for a Unix/Linux > course instructor. > > UW: SASAG (Unix Administrators Group) meets there. The meeting room is > just > fair and is available only because some of the group work at the U (most > attendees are sys-ad pros), I was not able to generate any interest at all > in getting support from these folks for a Linux group; we had the > organizers > meeting for "New GSLUG" in the library there, crammed into a small room, > but > getting a better one would require sponsorship by a club, I was told; The U > had a Linux group some time ago, and there were some GSLUGers attending the > school, but no group there ever got consistent traction. > > UW Tacoma: An intrepid student at this school was able to obtain free > access > to a classroom, which is great. From the website, they apparently have not > met since September. I really don't understand why LUGs are in so much > distress, just as Linux obtains wider appeal. > > High schools: None have been tried to my knowledge; may not be open on > Saturdays or in evenings; which ones have computer curricula? KPLUG has > met > at Kitsap High School, where they have supported a Linux lab (and > instruction?) and have friends on the faculty. Sadly, from their website: > "KPLUG has suspended meetings due to lack of interest. Thanks for 10 years > of supporting Linux." Boo-hoo -- really. > > Schools in general: For any school location, one really needs an advocate > on > the faculty or departmental administration just for openers, the best route > to acceptance and free use is via connection to an official student club. > This was tried at North, including once by Ian himself, but there has never > been a sufficient number of students who would commit consistently to > support a club to fulfill the school's criteria for recognizing an official > club (I think 15 must sign a petition and reports on meetings must be > supplied). Students have a lot on their minds and are not generally > reliable advocates -- and who needs another lecture or lab session :-) > Best > is to have a faculty member who will go to bat for you. North's Linux > instructor advertised our meetings very well, but was very wimpy about > confronting the administration about giving us a free pass. > > Restaurants and Third Place Books: Virtually no infrastructure in place, > relatively few have dedicated rooms available and most who have dedicated > rooms rent them for very high rates for commercial meetings, or at the > least, demand that all users buy food, time-slots are limited, meetings in > open areas are exercises in futility because those at the periphery of > groups of more than a dozen can't hear, or if they can, the audio level > will > bother others (tried Northgate Food Court, a Thai place downtown...) Small > sub-group meetings for chats have been initiated at restaurants in the past > and could be marginally feasible, but interest would wane or the organizer > would fade or both. > > Barnes and Noble: There is a sort of stealth Linux group that meets at the > Bellevue B&N. I don't know whether Northgate, Southcenter, or Downtown > branches have rooms, or how much demand exists for them, or what their > scheduling parameters are. Of course, it's just a bare room and I bet not > very large. Could be investigated. > > Bus travel: I can get from North Seattle to a medical appointment on First > Hill by car in 15 - 20 minutes, unless the freeway is totally slammed and > the Express Lane is going the wrong way. By bus, even via the 358 and 2 > lines, which are two of the most heavily scheduled routes, is typically an > hour, portal-to-portal. All bus service is totally pathetic time-wise, > unless the bus stops virtually in front of your house and no transfers are > required. Even so, count on at least twice the driving time. I sympathize > with anyone tied to bus transportation, but I don't see any venue that is > going to be very convenient for all potential meeting attendees who may > wish > to ride the bus to them. > > Other thoughts: > > Sometimes, an official non-profit organization would get a better deal at a > venue belonging to a government entity, but becoming a non-profit, even for > recognition by just the state and not the feds, requires officers, > reporting, etc. What are the chances for GSLUG doing that? > > When Seattle Wireless DOT NET was in its hey-day, they actually had an > Internet video link and an IRC channel for remote folks to participate -- > some from out of the area. Of course, cool as that was, it doesn't work to > fulfill all of GSLUG's objectives, including break-out group discussions > and > workshops. > > I would be happy to discuss these subjects further with anyone, but I am > still too involved in other efforts, such as broadband initiatives, saving > Seattle's trees, and other governmental issues, as well as trying to get my > life together in anticipation of declining capabilities as I age, to really > spearhead any of these efforts. Someone needs to step-up to coordinate and > put in a major part of the investigatory effort for either project to fly. > > That's just what I think, > > Ken Meyer > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: gslug-general-bounces@gslug.org > [mailto:gslug-general-bounces@gslug.org] > On Behalf Of Duncan Smith > Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 5:52 PM > To: Travis > Cc: gslug-general@gslug.org > > Subject: Re: [Gslug-general] FW: gslug > > On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 04:29:04PM -0800, Travis wrote: > > > I would gladly pay if the meetings were to return to NSCC. > > And I probably wouldn't even be able to come. I for one prefer for it > to be somewhere downtown. North Seattle is entirely too far. > > >From my house there are four buses that go downtown, taking between > ten and twenty minutes for total trip time. North Seattle CC, on the > other hand, is two buses and the trip takes approximately 50 minutes, > according to Trip Planner. > > If you really care that much, I can bring a map and we can plot dots > and circles on it at the next meeting to pick the truly better > location. That'd be the most fair choice, yes? Much better than > flaming each other out on the interwebs. > > > I don't fancy driving downtown and paying for parking or spend hours > > on the bus. > > Downtown is only one bus from almost everywhere in the county that has > bus service; riders from some areas way out east (the Sammammish > plateau, for instance) may have to transfer once or perhaps even > twice. > > For what it's worth, I don't fancy spending an hour (literally) on the > bus to go to NSCC. How long does it _actually_ take on the bus to get > downtown from where you live? > > I wouldn't mind alternating locations. > > Anything so long that we don't have to have this tiresome discussion > again, really. > > -- > Duncan in the City of Seattle > > .oO0Oo. > O _-_ O _____ > O | | O /_,-,_\ Duncan B. Smith > O /__ __\ O / @ \ +1 206-279-2659 > O - O +-----+ > ??OOO?? > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081119/12d1e0eb/attachment-0001.htm From brando.fouts at gmail.com Wed Nov 19 15:17:06 2008 From: brando.fouts at gmail.com (Brandon Fouts) Date: Wed Nov 19 15:19:52 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Convincing a school district to migrate from OS X to Ubuntu or Edubuntu Message-ID: <609b18560811191517n18045a14id695992b2c1a46da@mail.gmail.com> NOTE: OOo - Open Office .org - fixes MS Office corrupted files: Word and Excel (never tried power point) And I think it will avoid any ms passwords too - anyone tried to open a password protected MS file with OOo?? Showing people that OOo fixes MS files really makes them take notice of OOo. -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= www.psnug.org Puget Sound Network Users Group Building Technical Skills Through Teamwork And Education. Helping members realize Open Standards and investigate Open Source. _____________________ PSNUG dues/food $35 per year -21st anniversary coffee mug that you can pickup at any meeting - no we don't ship. pay at monthly meeting or send checks payable to: PSNUG PSNUG c/o Brandon Fouts 9549a Olympus Beach Rd NE Bainbridge Island, WA 98110-3446 ==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081119/83aa833e/attachment.html From paul-bartell at ubuntu.com Wed Nov 19 15:45:34 2008 From: paul-bartell at ubuntu.com (Paul Bartell) Date: Wed Nov 19 15:42:26 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Convincing a school district to migrate from OS X to Ubuntu or Edubuntu In-Reply-To: <609b18560811191517n18045a14id695992b2c1a46da@mail.gmail.com> References: <609b18560811191517n18045a14id695992b2c1a46da@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2b5bab0f0811191545r3aea41c0i25cda25335c6f9bf@mail.gmail.com> Im pretty sure you can open Ms word docs with passwords on them with OOO. On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 3:17 PM, Brandon Fouts wrote: > NOTE: OOo - Open Office .org - fixes MS Office corrupted files: Word and > Excel > > (never tried power point) > > And I think it will avoid any ms passwords too - anyone tried to open a > password protected MS file with OOo?? > > Showing people that OOo fixes MS files really makes them take notice of > OOo. > > > -- > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > www.psnug.org > Puget Sound Network Users Group > > Building Technical Skills Through Teamwork And Education. > Helping members realize Open Standards and investigate Open Source. > _____________________ > PSNUG dues/food $35 per year -21st anniversary coffee mug > that you can pickup at any meeting - no we don't ship. > pay at monthly meeting or send checks payable to: PSNUG > > PSNUG > c/o Brandon Fouts > 9549a Olympus Beach Rd NE > Bainbridge Island, WA 98110-3446 > ==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-==-== > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > -- Random quote of the week/month/whenever i get to updating it: "Opportunity knocked. My doorman threw him out." - Adrienne Gusoff "At school you don't get parole, good behavior only brings a longer sentence." - The History Boys From kmeyer at blarg.net Wed Nov 19 17:15:21 2008 From: kmeyer at blarg.net (Ken Meyer) Date: Wed Nov 19 17:12:12 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] FW: gslug In-Reply-To: <7db05a3c0811191513k219e2001q27224037b5c9fd1d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Ouch! Mea Culpa! Thanks for the correction. I should have known; I actually taught a few classes at Central (not in Linux). SSCC (South) vs. SCCC (Central) is too close, and I was also keying on Aaron's advocacy for South. So, in my message, read SCCC as South and Central as Central. Ken M. -----Original Message----- From: Skye Manning [mailto:specifyparameters@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 3:13 PM To: kmeyer@blarg.net Cc: Duncan Smith; gslug-general@gslug.org Subject: Re: [Gslug-general] FW: gslug thanks for sharing. i'd like to point out that SCCC == Seattle Central. -Skye (who thought NSCC was a great venue) I, Ken Meyer, wrote: [Big Snip] [Really South] SCCC: This place could probably provide most, if not all, of NSCC's facility advantages if the administration were to be so inclined to provide them. However, one of GSLUG's previous participants was an IT employee there, and he reported that the administration was not sympathetic with providing space. It is also really out of the way for most folks. SVI (Seattle Vocational Institute): up the hill on Jackson. Pretty central location; GSLUG met there prior to moving to NSCC because the building was no longer open on Saturdays and we would have had to pay for the security person (much more than $50). Facilities not great but better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick. [The Real SCCC] Seattle Central: Hasn't been tried to my knowledge; ugly parking, but good bus connection and centrally located. Potential infrastructure unknown. IT department has been known to be surly and paranoid about security, i.e. may not be able to plug into the system and may need an ID for even wireless access. Check it out. [Another Big Snip] -----Original Message----- From: gslug-general-bounces@gslug.org [mailto:gslug-general-bounces@gslug.org] On Behalf Of Duncan Smith Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 5:52 PM To: Travis Cc: gslug-general@gslug.org Subject: Re: [Gslug-general] FW: gslug On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 04:29:04PM -0800, Travis wrote: > I would gladly pay if the meetings were to return to NSCC. And I probably wouldn't even be able to come. I for one prefer for it to be somewhere downtown. North Seattle is entirely too far. >From my house there are four buses that go downtown, taking between ten and twenty minutes for total trip time. North Seattle CC, on the other hand, is two buses and the trip takes approximately 50 minutes, according to Trip Planner. If you really care that much, I can bring a map and we can plot dots and circles on it at the next meeting to pick the truly better location. That'd be the most fair choice, yes? Much better than flaming each other out on the interwebs. > I don't fancy driving downtown and paying for parking or spend hours > on the bus. Downtown is only one bus from almost everywhere in the county that has bus service; riders from some areas way out east (the Sammammish plateau, for instance) may have to transfer once or perhaps even twice. For what it's worth, I don't fancy spending an hour (literally) on the bus to go to NSCC. How long does it _actually_ take on the bus to get downtown from where you live? I wouldn't mind alternating locations. Anything so long that we don't have to have this tiresome discussion again, really. -- Duncan in the City of Seattle .oO0Oo. O _-_ O _____ O | | O /_,-,_\ Duncan B. Smith O /__ __\ O / @ \ +1 206-279-2659 O - O +-----+ ??OOO?? _______________________________________________ Gslug-general mailing list Gslug-general@gslug.org http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081119/b000937f/attachment.htm From jamesthefishy at gmail.com Wed Nov 19 17:26:02 2008 From: jamesthefishy at gmail.com (James Michael) Date: Wed Nov 19 17:23:03 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] FW: gslug In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4924BCAA.4020001@gmail.com> *points out that the key arena is now empty* :-P sorry for people still missing the sonics but its a good joke and I stick by it. Ken Meyer wrote: > Ouch! Mea Culpa! Thanks for the correction. I should have known; I > actually taught a few classes at Central (not in Linux). SSCC (South) > vs. SCCC (Central) is too close, and I was also keying on Aaron's > advocacy for South. > > So, in my message, read SCCC as South and Central as Central. > > Ken M. > > -----Original Message----- > > *From:* Skye Manning [mailto:specifyparameters@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Wednesday, November 19, 2008 3:13 PM > *To:* kmeyer@blarg.net > *Cc:* Duncan Smith; gslug-general@gslug.org > > > *Subject:* Re: [Gslug-general] FW: gslug > thanks for sharing. i'd like to point out that SCCC == Seattle > Central. > > -Skye > > (who thought NSCC was a great venue) > > I, Ken Meyer, wrote: > > [Big Snip] > > [Really South] SCCC: This place could probably provide most, if > not all, of NSCC's facility > advantages if the administration were to be so inclined to provide > them. > However, one of GSLUG's previous participants was an IT employee > there, and > he reported that the administration was not sympathetic with providing > space. It is also really out of the way for most folks. > > SVI (Seattle Vocational Institute): up the hill on Jackson. Pretty > central > location; GSLUG met there prior to moving to NSCC because the > building was > no longer open on Saturdays and we would have had to pay for the > security > person (much more than $50). Facilities not great but better than > a poke in > the eye with a sharp stick. > > [The Real SCCC] Seattle Central: Hasn't been tried to my > knowledge; ugly parking, but good > bus connection and centrally located. Potential infrastructure > unknown. IT > department has been known to be surly and paranoid about security, > i.e. may > not be able to plug into the system and may need an ID for even > wireless > access. Check it out. > > [Another Big Snip] > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: gslug-general-bounces@gslug.org > > [mailto:gslug-general-bounces@gslug.org > ] > On Behalf Of Duncan Smith > Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 5:52 PM > To: Travis > Cc: gslug-general@gslug.org > > Subject: Re: [Gslug-general] FW: gslug > > On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 04:29:04PM -0800, Travis wrote: > > > I would gladly pay if the meetings were to return to NSCC. > > And I probably wouldn't even be able to come. I for one > prefer for it > to be somewhere downtown. North Seattle is entirely too far. > > >From my house there are four buses that go downtown, taking > between > ten and twenty minutes for total trip time. North Seattle CC, > on the > other hand, is two buses and the trip takes approximately 50 > minutes, > according to Trip Planner. > > If you really care that much, I can bring a map and we can > plot dots > and circles on it at the next meeting to pick the truly better > location. That'd be the most fair choice, yes? Much better than > flaming each other out on the interwebs. > > > I don't fancy driving downtown and paying for parking or > spend hours > > on the bus. > > Downtown is only one bus from almost everywhere in the county > that has > bus service; riders from some areas way out east (the Sammammish > plateau, for instance) may have to transfer once or perhaps even > twice. > > For what it's worth, I don't fancy spending an hour > (literally) on the > bus to go to NSCC. How long does it _actually_ take on the > bus to get > downtown from where you live? > > I wouldn't mind alternating locations. > > Anything so long that we don't have to have this tiresome > discussion > again, really. > > -- > Duncan in the City of Seattle > > .oO0Oo. > O _-_ O _____ > O | | O /_,-,_\ Duncan B. Smith > O /__ __\ O / @ \ +1 206-279-2659 > O - O +-----+ > ??OOO?? > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general From technoshaman at liawol.org Wed Nov 19 17:51:10 2008 From: technoshaman at liawol.org (Glenn Stone) Date: Wed Nov 19 17:48:03 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] FW: gslug In-Reply-To: <4924BCAA.4020001@gmail.com> References: <4924BCAA.4020001@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081120015110.GV28424@liawol.org> On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 05:26:02PM -0800, James Michael wrote: > *points out that the key arena is now empty* :-P > > sorry for people still missing the sonics but its a good joke and I > stick by it. Hey, the real basketball is played in the summer. By women. Who still play in the Key... The losers get Oklahoma City. Ob-relevancy: I don't suppose someplace in Seattle Center would suit? Too pricey? -- Glenn From jtgray79 at gmail.com Wed Nov 19 19:01:05 2008 From: jtgray79 at gmail.com (Jeremiah T Gray) Date: Wed Nov 19 18:58:05 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] FW: gslug In-Reply-To: <4924BCAA.4020001@gmail.com> References: <4924BCAA.4020001@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50189C28-E992-49EF-A9B1-E98C5CAD33DD@gmail.com> > sorry for people still missing the sonics I can't imagine either if them subscribe to this list. > > Ken Meyer wrote: >> Ouch! Mea Culpa! Thanks for the correction. I should have known; >> I actually taught a few classes at Central (not in Linux). SSCC >> (South) vs. SCCC (Central) is too close, and I was also keying on >> Aaron's advocacy for South. So, in my message, read SCCC as South >> and Central as Central. >> Ken M. >> >> -----Original Message----- *From:* Skye Manning [mailto:specifyparameters@gmail.com >> ] >> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 19, 2008 3:13 PM >> *To:* kmeyer@blarg.net >> *Cc:* Duncan Smith; gslug-general@gslug.org >> *Subject:* Re: [Gslug- >> general] FW: gslug >> thanks for sharing. i'd like to point out that SCCC == Seattle >> Central. >> >> -Skye (who thought NSCC was a great venue) >> I, Ken Meyer, wrote: >> [Big Snip] >> [Really South] SCCC: This place could probably provide >> most, if >> not all, of NSCC's facility >> advantages if the administration were to be so inclined to provide >> them. >> However, one of GSLUG's previous participants was an IT employee >> there, and >> he reported that the administration was not sympathetic with >> providing >> space. It is also really out of the way for most folks. >> >> SVI (Seattle Vocational Institute): up the hill on Jackson. Pretty >> central >> location; GSLUG met there prior to moving to NSCC because the >> building was >> no longer open on Saturdays and we would have had to pay for the >> security >> person (much more than $50). Facilities not great but better than >> a poke in >> the eye with a sharp stick. >> >> [The Real SCCC] Seattle Central: Hasn't been tried to my >> knowledge; ugly parking, but good >> bus connection and centrally located. Potential infrastructure >> unknown. IT >> department has been known to be surly and paranoid about security, >> i.e. may >> not be able to plug into the system and may need an ID for even >> wireless >> access. Check it out. [Another Big Snip] >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: gslug-general-bounces@gslug.org >> >> [mailto:gslug-general-bounces@gslug.org >> ] >> On Behalf Of Duncan Smith >> Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 5:52 PM >> To: Travis >> Cc: gslug-general@gslug.org >> >> Subject: Re: [Gslug-general] FW: gslug >> >> On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 04:29:04PM -0800, Travis wrote: >> >> > I would gladly pay if the meetings were to return to NSCC. >> >> And I probably wouldn't even be able to come. I for one >> prefer for it >> to be somewhere downtown. North Seattle is entirely too far. >> >> >From my house there are four buses that go downtown, taking >> between >> ten and twenty minutes for total trip time. North Seattle CC, >> on the >> other hand, is two buses and the trip takes approximately 50 >> minutes, >> according to Trip Planner. >> >> If you really care that much, I can bring a map and we can >> plot dots >> and circles on it at the next meeting to pick the truly better >> location. That'd be the most fair choice, yes? Much better >> than >> flaming each other out on the interwebs. >> >> > I don't fancy driving downtown and paying for parking or >> spend hours >> > on the bus. >> >> Downtown is only one bus from almost everywhere in the county >> that has >> bus service; riders from some areas way out east (the >> Sammammish >> plateau, for instance) may have to transfer once or perhaps >> even >> twice. >> >> For what it's worth, I don't fancy spending an hour >> (literally) on the >> bus to go to NSCC. How long does it _actually_ take on the >> bus to get >> downtown from where you live? >> >> I wouldn't mind alternating locations. >> >> Anything so long that we don't have to have this tiresome >> discussion >> again, really. >> >> -- >> Duncan in the City of Seattle >> >> .oO0Oo. >> O _-_ O _____ >> O | | O /_,-,_\ Duncan B. Smith >> O /__ __\ O / @ \ +1 206-279-2659 >> O - O +-----+ >> ??OOO?? >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Gslug-general mailing list >> Gslug-general@gslug.org >> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general >> >> >> --- >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Gslug-general mailing list >> Gslug-general@gslug.org >> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general From kmeyer at blarg.net Wed Nov 19 19:58:46 2008 From: kmeyer at blarg.net (Ken Meyer) Date: Wed Nov 19 19:55:35 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] FW: classes Message-ID: Here is some further correspondence I have had with Harvey Friedman about his experiences in helping people break into Linux. Harvey reads the GSLUG archives but doesn't currently subscribe to the list, so I am the go-between. I have cut-and-pasted our messages to trim them and to interleave the questions and answers in sequence. Harvey has really done a great ongoing service for Linux. His approach to assisting newbies, including low income folks, at classes that have been held at the Fremont Neighborhood Center, is exemplary. It still is not clear what the level of computer savvy his typical students have going in, but it seems as if most are already reasonably competent with Windows. I think that would not be the case for most who were lining-up for a hand-me-down computer, so I would expect more call-backs to occur, and I have some personal experience in that vein (but not with Linux). I suggest that, if GSLUG seriously wants to pick-up on this most worthy cause, someone needs to step up to honcho the project, with pledges by others to support him or her. Then, scope out the refurbers and the labs where one might, for instance, install a server on which to run a terminal server version of Linux via a live CD of the terminal software -- or use the refurbs directly for the class. Then plan the curriculum and the refurb process, unless you are using an independent refurber as a source. Harv would be extremely valuable as a trainer for the trainers if he has the time and were willing. Ken Meyer -----Original Message----- From: Harvey Friedman [mailto:pnaopensource@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 9:08 AM To: kmeyer@blarg.net Subject: Re: classes >Sorry that I didn't include your classes in my elaboration on the >help-the-seniors initiative thread. I would be interested in your >experience with your students, and whether they keep calling you >for help... I had a unique situation. In addition to voluntarily teaching my classes, I also had a 2 hour open help session Thursdays from 10-12. At both classes and open labs (where I also would help install Linux for dual-booting, add memory, add 2nd hard drive, replace CD-rom with dvd-rw, etc.), I told people that I volunteered time at the Center and would do anything I could for them during that time. If they wanted more , I charged by the hour plus travel. I would not help if phoned in the middle of the night (after 10 PM for me). Several wanted me to help them get networking going at the home, for which they paid me, and 1 bartered home-cooked meals (I knew that she had little money). But most attendees never contacted me again, yet. >and whether you have any indication that they actually continue to >use Linux and become independently competent in using it. As far as I know, only 1 student is still using it. He dual-boots, Linux for online and almost everything else, but has a construction estimation program that he has to use windows to run. Box is old Dell with a 400 MHz CPU, so virtualizing under Linux won't work. Another had me take Win XP off her laptop and replace it with Kubuntu. She was reasonably happy for a few months but replaced her 8 pound laptop with a 12" ibook with a year of apple care left that she found for a good price on Craigslist. I doubt if many others looked at Linux as more than a novelty. >I have warned that if GSLUG really >gets into the refurb and training game, that they must be prepared >for a long-term commitment to their student "clients", but I could be >off-base. After all that, I think that having the 2-tier time share, some volunteering, and payment for those who can afford it would work well for classes. Since so many volunteered, GSLUG could set up shifts to make sure that someone is always at the lab. Maybe even a nite-owl would be willing to accept late nite phone calls, charging if and only if problem was solved. This is my last quarter teaching at PNC; they want to shift all classes to Greenwood Senior Center, as all the others are this quarter. It remains to be seen what will happen winter quarter. Harvey Friedman From paul-bartell at ubuntu.com Wed Nov 19 20:14:48 2008 From: paul-bartell at ubuntu.com (Paul Bartell) Date: Wed Nov 19 20:11:40 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] FW: gslug In-Reply-To: <20081120015110.GV28424@liawol.org> References: <4924BCAA.4020001@gmail.com> <20081120015110.GV28424@liawol.org> Message-ID: <2b5bab0f0811192014n4898228cidbb6ce49316424c8@mail.gmail.com> I cant see the seattle center as that good of a choice. its still downtown, and would require a couple bus transfers. at least for me. On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 5:51 PM, Glenn Stone wrote: > On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 05:26:02PM -0800, James Michael wrote: >> *points out that the key arena is now empty* :-P >> >> sorry for people still missing the sonics but its a good joke and I >> stick by it. > > Hey, the real basketball is played in the summer. By women. Who still play > in the Key... > > The losers get Oklahoma City. > > Ob-relevancy: I don't suppose someplace in Seattle Center would suit? Too > pricey? > > -- Glenn > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > -- Random quote of the week/month/whenever i get to updating it: "Opportunity knocked. My doorman threw him out." - Adrienne Gusoff "At school you don't get parole, good behavior only brings a longer sentence." - The History Boys From technoshaman at liawol.org Wed Nov 19 20:51:09 2008 From: technoshaman at liawol.org (Glenn Stone) Date: Wed Nov 19 20:48:02 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] FW: gslug In-Reply-To: <2b5bab0f0811192014n4898228cidbb6ce49316424c8@mail.gmail.com> References: <4924BCAA.4020001@gmail.com> <20081120015110.GV28424@liawol.org> <2b5bab0f0811192014n4898228cidbb6ce49316424c8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081120045109.GX28424@liawol.org> On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 08:14:48PM -0800, Paul Bartell wrote: >I cant see the seattle center as that good of a choice. its still >downtown, and would require a couple bus transfers. at least for me. Actually, it's not downtown, it's the other side of Denny, and the parking, while not always free, is at least plentiful... and there are about a bazillion buses that go through there. Lessee... 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 8, 13, 15, 16, 18, 30, and a couple blocks off, 358... that covers inbound from Ballard, Fremont, the U, Northgate, Cap Hill, Queen Anne, and darn near Snohomish County. Face it, folks, we're spread out enough that *wherever* we end up, *somebody*'s gonna have to suck it up or skib it. There's *not gonna* be an optimal solution for everybody. We can do rotating venues, but that's going to tend to fragment us even more, I think. What we have to do is pick a spot where we can maintain critical mass... one that isn't *too* sucky for a decent-sized lot of folk. I do think one that's not dependent on somebody's good graces is a good idea. Ken had some other good criteria elsepost. A good balance between bus and car accessibility is also key. This is sorta like putting together a hotshot computer. Do you get the hotrod, run-forever SCSIs, and sacrifice space, or do you get the big honkin' SATA drives that may not last as long nor spin as fast? You want the hottest CPU out there, or you want a quiet machine? You gonna go 100% open source, and give up some graphics performance, or are you going to bite the bullet and run the proprietary driver and have an amazing number of FPS? Decisions, decisions. My 1.6 cents. -- Glenn From jamesthefishy at gmail.com Thu Nov 20 00:01:15 2008 From: jamesthefishy at gmail.com (James Michael) Date: Wed Nov 19 23:58:19 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] FW: gslug In-Reply-To: <20081120045109.GX28424@liawol.org> References: <4924BCAA.4020001@gmail.com> <20081120015110.GV28424@liawol.org> <2b5bab0f0811192014n4898228cidbb6ce49316424c8@mail.gmail.com> <20081120045109.GX28424@liawol.org> Message-ID: <4925194B.20805@gmail.com> I have to agree and the fact so many people are concentrating on their personal location makes this so much harder. I say as long as its located around Greater Seattle then the people who really want to go will go. Glenn Stone wrote: > On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 08:14:48PM -0800, Paul Bartell wrote: > >> I cant see the seattle center as that good of a choice. its still >> downtown, and would require a couple bus transfers. at least for me. >> > > Actually, it's not downtown, it's the other side of Denny, and the parking, > while not always free, is at least plentiful... and there are about a > bazillion buses that go through there. Lessee... 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 8, 13, 15, > 16, 18, 30, and a couple blocks off, 358... that covers inbound from > Ballard, Fremont, the U, Northgate, Cap Hill, Queen Anne, and darn near > Snohomish County. > > Face it, folks, we're spread out enough that *wherever* we end up, > *somebody*'s gonna have to suck it up or skib it. There's *not gonna* be an > optimal solution for everybody. We can do rotating venues, but that's going > to tend to fragment us even more, I think. What we have to do is pick a > spot where we can maintain critical mass... one that isn't *too* sucky for a > decent-sized lot of folk. > > I do think one that's not dependent on somebody's good graces is a good > idea. Ken had some other good criteria elsepost. A good balance between > bus and car accessibility is also key. > > This is sorta like putting together a hotshot computer. Do you get the > hotrod, run-forever SCSIs, and sacrifice space, or do you get the big > honkin' SATA drives that may not last as long nor spin as fast? You want > the hottest CPU out there, or you want a quiet machine? You gonna go 100% > open source, and give up some graphics performance, or are you going to > bite the bullet and run the proprietary driver and have an amazing number of > FPS? > > Decisions, decisions. > > My 1.6 cents. > -- Glenn > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081120/a5bf6cc8/attachment.html From jamesthefishy at gmail.com Thu Nov 20 00:05:24 2008 From: jamesthefishy at gmail.com (James Michael) Date: Thu Nov 20 00:02:26 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] FW: classes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49251A44.9000303@gmail.com> I would be willing to support by allowing users onto http://pulpie.ath.cx for command line learning for the windows to linux transition. As well as recommend http://fushi.sf.net which is also my project which I'd be willing to modify on my own time to fit any need that the community sees fit. Ken Meyer wrote: > Here is some further correspondence I have had with Harvey Friedman about > his experiences in helping people break into Linux. Harvey reads the GSLUG > archives but doesn't currently subscribe to the list, so I am the > go-between. I have cut-and-pasted our messages to trim them and to > interleave the questions and answers in sequence. > > Harvey has really done a great ongoing service for Linux. His approach to > assisting newbies, including low income folks, at classes that have been > held at the Fremont Neighborhood Center, is exemplary. It still is not > clear what the level of computer savvy his typical students have going in, > but it seems as if most are already reasonably competent with Windows. I > think that would not be the case for most who were lining-up for a > hand-me-down computer, so I would expect more call-backs to occur, and I > have some personal experience in that vein (but not with Linux). > > I suggest that, if GSLUG seriously wants to pick-up on this most worthy > cause, someone needs to step up to honcho the project, with pledges by > others to support him or her. Then, scope out the refurbers and the labs > where one might, for instance, install a server on which to run a terminal > server version of Linux via a live CD of the terminal software -- or use the > refurbs directly for the class. Then plan the curriculum and the refurb > process, unless you are using an independent refurber as a source. Harv > would be extremely valuable as a trainer for the trainers if he has the time > and were willing. > > Ken Meyer > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Harvey Friedman [mailto:pnaopensource@gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 9:08 AM > To: kmeyer@blarg.net > > Subject: Re: classes > > >> Sorry that I didn't include your classes in my elaboration on the >> help-the-seniors initiative thread. I would be interested in your >> experience with your students, and whether they keep calling you >> for help... >> > > I had a unique situation. In addition to voluntarily teaching my > classes, I also had a 2 hour open help session Thursdays from 10-12. > At both classes and open labs (where I also would help install Linux > for dual-booting, add memory, add 2nd hard drive, replace CD-rom with > dvd-rw, etc.), I told people that I volunteered time at the Center and > would do anything I could for them during that time. If they wanted > more , I charged by the hour plus travel. I would not help if > phoned in the middle of the night (after 10 PM for me). > > Several wanted me to help them get networking going at the home, > for which they paid me, and 1 bartered home-cooked meals (I knew > that she had little money). But most attendees never contacted me > again, yet. > > >> and whether you have any indication that they actually continue to >> use Linux and become independently competent in using it. >> > > As far as I know, only 1 student is still using it. He dual-boots, Linux > for > online and almost everything else, but has a construction estimation > program that he has to use windows to run. Box is old Dell with a > 400 MHz CPU, so virtualizing under Linux won't work. Another had me > take Win XP off her laptop and replace it with Kubuntu. She was > reasonably happy for a few months but replaced her 8 pound laptop > with a 12" ibook with a year of apple care left that she found for a > good price on Craigslist. > > I doubt if many others looked at Linux as more than a novelty. > > >> I have warned that if GSLUG really >> gets into the refurb and training game, that they must be prepared >> for a long-term commitment to their student "clients", but I could be >> off-base. >> > > After all that, I think that having the 2-tier time share, some > volunteering, and payment for those who can afford it would work well > for classes. Since so many volunteered, GSLUG could set up shifts to > make sure that someone is always at the lab. Maybe even a nite-owl > would be willing to accept late nite phone calls, charging if and only > if problem was solved. > > This is my last quarter teaching at PNC; they want to shift all > classes to Greenwood Senior Center, as all the others are this quarter. > It remains to be seen what will happen winter quarter. > > Harvey Friedman > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > > From reed at reedmedia.net Thu Nov 20 05:49:41 2008 From: reed at reedmedia.net (Jeremy C. Reed) Date: Thu Nov 20 06:22:28 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] FW: classes In-Reply-To: <49251A44.9000303@gmail.com> References: <49251A44.9000303@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Nov 2008, James Michael wrote: > I would be willing to support by allowing users onto http://pulpie.ath.cx for > command line learning for the windows to linux transition. As well as > recommend http://fushi.sf.net which is also my project which I'd be willing to > modify on my own time to fit any need that the community sees fit. Do you have any screenshots, example output or dialog, or docs about fushi? Sounds interesting. (I have taught many Unix/open source related classes and lectures and I work at the BSD Certification Group, so maybe this could be useful.) From ashex at chipnick.com Thu Nov 20 11:15:18 2008 From: ashex at chipnick.com (Ahmed Osman) Date: Thu Nov 20 11:19:25 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] FW: gslug In-Reply-To: <4925194B.20805@gmail.com> References: <4924BCAA.4020001@gmail.com> <20081120015110.GV28424@liawol.org> <2b5bab0f0811192014n4898228cidbb6ce49316424c8@mail.gmail.com> <20081120045109.GX28424@liawol.org> <4925194B.20805@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'll pipe in and say I could care less where it is located as long as I can park somewhere nearby. So long as it is within a 30 minute drive, I'll attend. If this were occuring more often then once a month, then location would be something to consider.But as it stands now, I don't mind driving a ways for a meeting. I'm even willing to pick people up on the way if need be. -Ahmed Osman On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 12:01 AM, James Michael wrote: > I have to agree and the fact so many people are concentrating on their > personal location makes this so much harder. I say as long as its located > around Greater Seattle then the people who really want to go will go. > > > Glenn Stone wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 08:14:48PM -0800, Paul Bartell wrote: > > > I cant see the seattle center as that good of a choice. its still > downtown, and would require a couple bus transfers. at least for me. > > > Actually, it's not downtown, it's the other side of Denny, and the parking, > while not always free, is at least plentiful... and there are about a > bazillion buses that go through there. Lessee... 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 8, 13, 15, > 16, 18, 30, and a couple blocks off, 358... that covers inbound from > Ballard, Fremont, the U, Northgate, Cap Hill, Queen Anne, and darn near > Snohomish County. > > Face it, folks, we're spread out enough that *wherever* we end up, > *somebody*'s gonna have to suck it up or skib it. There's *not gonna* be an > optimal solution for everybody. We can do rotating venues, but that's going > to tend to fragment us even more, I think. What we have to do is pick a > spot where we can maintain critical mass... one that isn't *too* sucky for a > decent-sized lot of folk. > > I do think one that's not dependent on somebody's good graces is a good > idea. Ken had some other good criteria elsepost. A good balance between > bus and car accessibility is also key. > > This is sorta like putting together a hotshot computer. Do you get the > hotrod, run-forever SCSIs, and sacrifice space, or do you get the big > honkin' SATA drives that may not last as long nor spin as fast? You want > the hottest CPU out there, or you want a quiet machine? You gonna go 100% > open source, and give up some graphics performance, or are you going to > bite the bullet and run the proprietary driver and have an amazing number of > FPS? > > Decisions, decisions. > > My 1.6 cents. > -- Glenn > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing listGslug-general@gslug.orghttp://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > > > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081120/85b10f50/attachment.htm From jamesthefishy at gmail.com Thu Nov 20 14:30:47 2008 From: jamesthefishy at gmail.com (James Michael) Date: Thu Nov 20 14:27:58 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] FW: classes In-Reply-To: References: <49251A44.9000303@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4925E517.3090703@gmail.com> there are screen shots at http://sourceforge.net/project/screenshots.php?group_id=238851 and http://linux.softpedia.com/progScreenshots/Fake-User-Shell-Interface-Screenshot-41665.html Although right now the unstable version is a lot better in my opinion. Instead of it being 2 files, I have them in one and its easier to translate... I would assume it will release before January 09 but I can't promise anything. It is under the BSD license and the source code I work on is saved to http://fishy.ath.cx/Beta/ Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > On Thu, 20 Nov 2008, James Michael wrote: > > >> I would be willing to support by allowing users onto http://pulpie.ath.cx for >> command line learning for the windows to linux transition. As well as >> recommend http://fushi.sf.net which is also my project which I'd be willing to >> modify on my own time to fit any need that the community sees fit. >> > > Do you have any screenshots, example output or dialog, or docs about > fushi? > > Sounds interesting. (I have taught many Unix/open source related classes > and lectures and I work at the BSD Certification Group, so maybe this > could be useful.) > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081120/9186e649/attachment.html From ryanc at greengrey.org Fri Nov 21 15:45:40 2008 From: ryanc at greengrey.org (Ryan Corder) Date: Fri Nov 21 15:42:35 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] FW: gslug In-Reply-To: <2b5bab0f0811181824w5641b5a1i7cf39fac2f6242cc@mail.gmail.com> References: <20081119015210.GA14067@5.7.5.5.6.6.6.6.0.2.1.e164.arpa> <2b5bab0f0811181824w5641b5a1i7cf39fac2f6242cc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081121234539.GA20641@greengrey.org> On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 06:24:59PM -0800, Paul Bartell wrote: | Problem with that is that we already have so few people coming to | meetings. Further splitting up the group would make it even worse. You've clearly never been part of a LUG that has low attendance. My old LUG in Arkansas was luck if maybe 2-3 people showed up. It didn't matter where it was held, what time it was, or what the topic was. Everyone would make suggestions as to what it would take to get them to come to meetings and the group would go out of it's way to make said changes but people still failed to show. The fact that I've been to the last 6 or so meetings and consitently find around 20 or so people attending makes me giddy. From gray.andrew at comcast.net Fri Nov 21 22:02:54 2008 From: gray.andrew at comcast.net (gray.andrew@comcast.net) Date: Fri Nov 21 22:00:01 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Question for iBook/Linux users Message-ID: <112220080602.27153.4927A08E0004EB7A00006A112205886014990A9D0B020ED2970E9D09@comcast.net> Hey Gsluggers! (Is this too colloquial?) I noticed there were a number of laptops from Apple (I avoid saying that they're Macs) at the last few GSLUG meetings. I'm going to be getting an old iBook G4 from a friend pretty soon, so to all of those using Apple laptops, is it an easy fix to get a right-click effect from a single-button "mouse"? Does one make a key to act as the right-click, such as Fn or Ctrl? I'll be bringing the laptop in question to the January meeting if the fix isn't easy. Thanks, --Andrew Gray From dxmio.web at gmail.com Sat Nov 22 12:01:15 2008 From: dxmio.web at gmail.com (dx mio) Date: Sat Nov 22 11:58:09 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Question for iBook/Linux users In-Reply-To: <112220080602.27153.4927A08E0004EB7A00006A112205886014990A9D0B020ED2970E9D09@comcast.net> References: <112220080602.27153.4927A08E0004EB7A00006A112205886014990A9D0B020ED2970E9D09@comcast.net> Message-ID: <84d661d60811221201o9c84ef7r4b1142a808a49c42@mail.gmail.com> Typically it's a matter of placing 2 fingers on the touchpad and then clicking the button, assuming the proper drivers are installed. -Ben On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 10:02 PM, wrote: > Hey Gsluggers! (Is this too colloquial?) > > I noticed there were a number of laptops from Apple (I avoid saying that > they're Macs) at the last few GSLUG meetings. I'm going to be getting an old > iBook G4 from a friend pretty soon, so to all of those using Apple laptops, > is it an easy fix to get a right-click effect from a single-button "mouse"? > Does one make a key to act as the right-click, such as Fn or Ctrl? I'll be > bringing the laptop in question to the January meeting if the fix isn't > easy. > > Thanks, > --Andrew Gray > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081122/ef755fd8/attachment.htm From ashex at chipnick.com Sat Nov 22 13:40:38 2008 From: ashex at chipnick.com (Ahmed Osman) Date: Sat Nov 22 13:37:28 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Question for iBook/Linux users In-Reply-To: <84d661d60811221201o9c84ef7r4b1142a808a49c42@mail.gmail.com> References: <112220080602.27153.4927A08E0004EB7A00006A112205886014990A9D0B020ED2970E9D09@comcast.net><84d661d60811221201o9c84ef7r4b1142a808a49c42@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1742360859-1227390036-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-177995482-@bxe340.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> That's correct, so long as the synaptic driver is loaded and in X.org with the correct options, you can do this. Sent Via Blackberry -----Original Message----- From: "dx mio" Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 12:01:15 To: Subject: Re: [Gslug-general] Question for iBook/Linux users _______________________________________________ Gslug-general mailing list Gslug-general@gslug.org http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general From zaltar at myway.com Mon Nov 24 09:51:30 2008 From: zaltar at myway.com (Paul DeShaw) Date: Mon Nov 24 09:48:22 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Linux (Ubuntu?) for Seniors Project? Message-ID: <20081124125130.21213@web001.roc2.bluetie.com> -----Original Message----- From: "Michael_Faraday" [steven_coles@yahoo.com] Date: 11/19/2008 11:43 AM To: Gslug-general@gslug.org Subject: Re: [Gslug-general] Linux (Ubuntu?) for Seniors Project? Steve wrote: > I'm wondering whether anyone wants to look into getting some going with a non-geeky Linux for low-income seniors. Your thoughts? I didn't see a reply in the pile of unread mail, so I thought I'd jump in. Forgive me if I missed someone's post. I only have time to look at my mail a couple times a week, and I just can't keep up with the traffic. I have been wondering if the OLPC's Sugar interface would be the most senior-friendly way to introduce seniors to Linux. It can be run on top of Ubuntu and other distros. OTOH, some seniors are tech-savvy and might want something more standard like KDE or GNOME. It might be worth setting up a machine with Sugar and seeing what happens. FWIW, I forgot exactly how I set it up; there was something on the Sugar Labs website that linked to something on the OLPC WIKI that told me what Ubuntu packages to install. I've had it running a couple times, but lost interest--which itself might not bode well. There's also GOS, which loads a bunch of easy to use Google apps on the desktop, and hides the command line. --Paul ------------------------------------------------------------ Photo Search Click here to find the perfect picture with our powerful photo search features. http://216.21.215.31/fc/BK72Pcagg39ZjDIZDepCvrByKwtUhofG4CC9XXxrrBC9gArGinHHA8/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081124/1fecc5ce/attachment.html From paul-bartell at ubuntu.com Mon Nov 24 10:10:02 2008 From: paul-bartell at ubuntu.com (Paul Bartell) Date: Mon Nov 24 10:06:50 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Linux (Ubuntu?) for Seniors Project? In-Reply-To: <20081124125130.21213@web001.roc2.bluetie.com> References: <20081124125130.21213@web001.roc2.bluetie.com> Message-ID: <2b5bab0f0811241010p7bef37d8s2a8fbe9b277a15c8@mail.gmail.com> The problem i see with sugar is that if they have grandkids/kids/other poeple who want to show them something on the computer, when they see sugar they will be like what is this, and want something more to what is usually used. GOs might be a good idea, though enlightenment can be run on pretty much anything. On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 9:51 AM, Paul DeShaw wrote: > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Michael_Faraday" [steven_coles@yahoo.com] > Date: 11/19/2008 11:43 AM > To: Gslug-general@gslug.org > Subject: Re: [Gslug-general] Linux (Ubuntu?) for Seniors Project? > > Steve wrote: >> I'm wondering whether anyone wants to look into getting some going with a >> non-geeky Linux for low-income seniors. Your thoughts? > > I didn't see a reply in the pile of unread mail, so I thought I'd jump in. > Forgive me if I missed someone's post. I only have time to look at my mail a > couple times a week, and I just can't keep up with the traffic. > > I have been wondering if the OLPC's Sugar interface would be the most > senior-friendly way to introduce seniors to Linux. It can be run on top of > Ubuntu and other distros. OTOH, some seniors are tech-savvy and might want > something more standard like KDE or GNOME. It might be worth setting up a > machine with Sugar and seeing what happens. > > FWIW, I forgot exactly how I set it up; there was something on the Sugar > Labs website that linked to something on the OLPC WIKI that told me what > Ubuntu packages to install. I've had it running a couple times, but lost > interest--which itself might not bode well. > > There's also GOS, which loads a bunch of easy to use Google apps on the > desktop, and hides the command line. > > --Paul > ________________________________ > Photo Search > Click here to find the perfect picture with our powerful photo search > features. > Click here for more information > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > -- Random quote of the week/month/whenever i get to updating it: "Opportunity knocked. My doorman threw him out." - Adrienne Gusoff "At school you don't get parole, good behavior only brings a longer sentence." - The History Boys From steven_coles at yahoo.com Mon Nov 24 16:11:06 2008 From: steven_coles at yahoo.com (Michael_Faraday) Date: Mon Nov 24 16:07:55 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Re: Linux (Ubuntu?) for Seniors Project? In-Reply-To: <2b5bab0f0811241010p7bef37d8s2a8fbe9b277a15c8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <896169.53540.qm@web36405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Paul and Paul, Thank you for your replies. Actually, this forum has had quite a few comments. As a senior I like Edubuntu. It keeps all the menus where I expect them. It adds multitude activities?some well suited for my granddaughter and me to do together. As I walked into the Kenmore library a few minutes ago I noticed the Northshore Senior Center Newsletter for Oct, Nov, and Dec. Its eight-page computer-class section lists six to eight classes per page?about fifty classes. Most ended before the Thanksgiving through New Year holiday season. All are for Macintosh, XP, and Vista. Some give instruction in the operating systems and some in applications. The level runs from how to find free knitting patterns using Google to how to secure home Wi-Fi. Some use the senior centers' computer labs. Some ask us to take our own computers to class. Seniors teach some classes, teens teach some, and probably others teach some. I don't know whether the Jan, Feb, March newsletter has been finished yet. In spite of some comments here, I wouldn't be surprised to find some retired UNIX users who would love to have an OS with a decent shell (like BASH). Regards, Steven -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081124/0635836e/attachment.htm From erratic at devel.ws Fri Nov 28 15:18:28 2008 From: erratic at devel.ws (Paige Thompson) Date: Fri Nov 28 15:15:14 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Fwd: Re: Mumbai: we will not be divided In-Reply-To: <200811290014.39981.cave.dnb2m97pp@aliceadsl.fr> References: <0a1526fe03f07d01ee516788f1fac485@dp1.avaaz.org> <45391f280811281455t4b4ffa09r99b9fca6343d1053@mail.gmail.com> <200811290014.39981.cave.dnb2m97pp@aliceadsl.fr> Message-ID: <5061b39c0811281518r50f34886kaf90aea422256847@mail.gmail.com> sent from my gphone! ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Nigel Henry" Date: Nov 28, 2008 3:16 PM Subject: Re: Mumbai: we will not be divided To: "Ubuntu user technical support, not for general discussions" < ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com> On Friday 28 November 2008 23:55, Steve Flynn wrote: > Fuck all to do with Ubuntu - why are you post... Don't let it wind you up Steve. I've been on the Debian lists for some time, and the odd bit of spam gets past the filters (mainly 419 stuff). There have been a couple of occasions when the filters have been compromised, and we have have received 100's of spam postings to the list over a couple of days, until someone has resolved the problem. None of this stuff is nice, but I suppose we just have to accept, and ignore it, and send it to the trash. Saying that. I do get seriously T'd off at times with this crap. Nigel. -- ubuntu-users mailing list ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: http... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081128/91ede290/attachment.html From erratic at devel.ws Fri Nov 28 15:21:29 2008 From: erratic at devel.ws (Paige Thompson) Date: Fri Nov 28 15:18:08 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Fwd: Mumbai: we will not be divided In-Reply-To: <69f262fe9533db217a93669192ad5188@dp1.avaaz.org> References: <69f262fe9533db217a93669192ad5188@dp1.avaaz.org> Message-ID: <5061b39c0811281521qd7dcd17r3b4818f0b6924668@mail.gmail.com> Sorry think I forwarded the wrong thing, just to be sure... sent from my gphone! ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Arvind" Date: Nov 28, 2008 5:38 AM Subject: Mumbai: we will not be divided To: Hi, I just signed an urgent message calling for unity following the attacks in Mumbai. Read the email below - Thanks -------------------------- Dear friends across India and the world, We're all feeling the shock of the awful attacks in Mumbai. All our hearts go out to the victims and their families. The attacks were aimed at our people, our prosperity and our peace. But their top target was something else: our unity. If these attacks cause us to turn on each other in hatred and conflict, the terrorists will have won. They know that hatred and chaos feed on division. They also know that as radical extremists, their only hope of winning is by turning the rest of us against each other. Let's deny them that victory. We're launching a message to extremists on all sides and all our political leaders, one that will soon be published in newspapers across India and Pakistan. The message is that these tactics aren't working, that we're more united than ever, united in our love and support to each other, and determined to work together to stop violent extremism. If millions of people sign it, our message will be unmistakable, click below to sign it and please forward this email widely: http://www.avaaz.org/en/india_undivided/98.php/?cl_tf_sign=1 It's time to speak out, let's do it together. Thanks -------------------------------- OPENTRACK You are receiving this email because someone sent it to you via the "tell-a-friend" tool at Avaaz.org. Avaaz retains no information about individuals contacted through this tool. Avaaz will not send you further messages without your consent--although your friends could, of course, send you another message. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081128/3439cf1c/attachment.htm From erratic at devel.ws Fri Nov 28 15:37:24 2008 From: erratic at devel.ws (Paige Thompson) Date: Fri Nov 28 15:34:05 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Linux on embedded platforms Message-ID: <5061b39c0811281537r65c643cav9567a579cb8ed6a8@mail.gmail.com> I recently got to play around with the root shell on my htc g1 and noticed that for a linux operating system-- its missing *alot* of stuff. Is there any standard or generally agreed upon approach for scaling down a linux operating system such as google did for android? What generic embedded linux platforms exist besides openmoko? sent from my gphone! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081128/21169ac4/attachment.html From dlg_grdnr7 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 30 03:49:14 2008 From: dlg_grdnr7 at yahoo.com (Donald G) Date: Sun Nov 30 03:52:35 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] linux administration Message-ID: <871075.13673.qm@web57613.mail.re1.yahoo.com> I have just had a frustrating time trying to install VM ware on my suse linux machine. Where can I find the instructions I need to install, configure and start VMware? Whenever something goes wrong, I cry to my friend who leads me thru it, but I need to learn to do it by myself HELP! Donald -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081130/56888ad6/attachment.htm From jamesthefishy at gmail.com Sun Nov 30 03:59:03 2008 From: jamesthefishy at gmail.com (James Michael) Date: Sun Nov 30 03:55:43 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] linux administration In-Reply-To: <871075.13673.qm@web57613.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <871075.13673.qm@web57613.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49328007.7070005@gmail.com> I use virtual box as it seems to be a bit easier then VM ware. At least thats my opinion. I think vm ware has full documentation on their site some where, it might be a place to start. Donald G wrote: > I have just had a frustrating time trying to install VM ware on my > suse linux machine. Where can I find the instructions I need to > install, configure and start VMware? Whenever something goes wrong, > I cry to my friend who leads me thru it, but I need to learn to do it > by myself > HELP! > Donald > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081130/db658ce1/attachment.html From dlg_grdnr7 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 30 04:07:09 2008 From: dlg_grdnr7 at yahoo.com (Donald G) Date: Sun Nov 30 04:04:19 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] linux administration References: <871075.13673.qm@web57613.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <49328007.7070005@gmail.com> Message-ID: <983641.76933.qm@web57607.mail.re1.yahoo.com> sounds good, what is their web site? ________________________________ From: James Michael To: Donald G Cc: gslug-general@gslug.org Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 7:59:03 PM Subject: Re: [Gslug-general] linux administration I use virtual box as it seems to be a bit easier then VM ware. At least thats my opinion. I think vm ware has full documentation on their site some where, it might be a place to start. Donald G wrote: I have just had a frustrating time trying to install VM ware on my suse linux machine. Where can I find the instructions I need to install, configure and start VMware? Whenever something goes wrong, I cry to my friend who leads me thru it, but I need to learn to do it by myself HELP! Donald ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Gslug-general mailing list Gslug-general@gslug.org http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081130/d443204d/attachment.htm From jamesthefishy at gmail.com Sun Nov 30 04:18:05 2008 From: jamesthefishy at gmail.com (James Michael) Date: Sun Nov 30 04:14:42 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] linux administration In-Reply-To: <983641.76933.qm@web57607.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <871075.13673.qm@web57613.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <49328007.7070005@gmail.com> <983641.76933.qm@web57607.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4932847D.5040503@gmail.com> http://www.vmware.com/support/pubs/ No offense but next time just google it. Donald G wrote: > sounds good, what is their web site? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* James Michael > *To:* Donald G > *Cc:* gslug-general@gslug.org > *Sent:* Sunday, November 30, 2008 7:59:03 PM > *Subject:* Re: [Gslug-general] linux administration > > I use virtual box as it seems to be a bit easier then VM ware. At > least thats my opinion. I think vm ware has full documentation on > their site some where, it might be a place to start. > > Donald G wrote: >> I have just had a frustrating time trying to install VM ware on my >> suse linux machine. Where can I find the instructions I need to >> install, configure and start VMware? Whenever something goes wrong, >> I cry to my friend who leads me thru it, but I need to learn to do it >> by myself >> HELP! >> Donald >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Gslug-general mailing list >> Gslug-general@gslug.org >> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > From dlg_grdnr7 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 30 04:27:09 2008 From: dlg_grdnr7 at yahoo.com (Donald G) Date: Sun Nov 30 04:23:48 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] linux administration References: <871075.13673.qm@web57613.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <49328007.7070005@gmail.com> <983641.76933.qm@web57607.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4932847D.5040503@gmail.com> Message-ID: <628413.24590.qm@web57608.mail.re1.yahoo.com> No offense, but I meant what is the web site for virtual box? I accidently googled for VM box because I got confused. I found "Virtualbox.com" All these virtual software sites gets confusing. ________________________________ From: James Michael To: Donald G Cc: gslug-general@gslug.org Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 8:18:05 PM Subject: Re: [Gslug-general] linux administration http://www.vmware.com/support/pubs/ No offense but next time just google it. Donald G wrote: > sounds good, what is their web site? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* James Michael > *To:* Donald G > *Cc:* gslug-general@gslug.org > *Sent:* Sunday, November 30, 2008 7:59:03 PM > *Subject:* Re: [Gslug-general] linux administration > > I use virtual box as it seems to be a bit easier then VM ware. At least thats my opinion. I think vm ware has full documentation on their site some where, it might be a place to start. > > Donald G wrote: >> I have just had a frustrating time trying to install VM ware on my suse linux machine. Where can I find the instructions I need to install, configure and start VMware? Whenever something goes wrong, I cry to my friend who leads me thru it, but I need to learn to do it by myself >> HELP! >> Donald >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Gslug-general mailing list >> Gslug-general@gslug.org >> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081130/8b7e45d1/attachment.html From jamesthefishy at gmail.com Sun Nov 30 05:04:18 2008 From: jamesthefishy at gmail.com (james michael) Date: Sun Nov 30 05:00:05 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] linux administration In-Reply-To: <628413.24590.qm@web57608.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <871075.13673.qm@web57613.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <49328007.7070005@gmail.com> <983641.76933.qm@web57607.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4932847D.5040503@gmail.com> <628413.24590.qm@web57608.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49328F52.7050008@gmail.com> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jamesthefishy.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 127 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081130/5e814710/jamesthefishy-0001.vcf From dlg_grdnr7 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 30 06:44:26 2008 From: dlg_grdnr7 at yahoo.com (Donald G) Date: Sun Nov 30 06:41:09 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] virual box References: <871075.13673.qm@web57613.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <49328007.7070005@gmail.com> <983641.76933.qm@web57607.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4932847D.5040503@gmail.com> <628413.24590.qm@web57608.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <49328F52.7050008@gmail.com> Message-ID: <501173.72096.qm@web57607.mail.re1.yahoo.com> I downloaded the users manual for virtual box, but am lost as to how to install it on suse. Can you tell me how to get started? The software doesn't take much space. VM ware is over 500 Mb! I have a lot of trouble running VM ware. Hope that Virtual box is easier to run ________________________________ From: james michael To: Donald G Cc: gslug-general@gslug.org Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 9:04:18 PM Subject: Re: [Gslug-general] linux administration www.virtualbox.org It's by sun. Donald G wrote: No offense, but I meant what is the web site for virtual box? I accidently googled for VM box because I got confused. I found "Virtualbox.com" All these virtual software sites gets confusing. ________________________________ From: James Michael To: Donald G Cc: gslug-general@gslug.org Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 8:18:05 PM Subject: Re: [Gslug-general] linux administration http://www.vmware.com/support/pubs/ No offense but next time just google it. Donald G wrote: > sounds good, what is their web site? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* James Michael > *To:* Donald G > *Cc:* gslug-general@gslug.org > *Sent:* Sunday, November 30, 2008 7:59:03 PM > *Subject:* Re: [Gslug-general] linux administration > > I use virtual box as it seems to be a bit easier then VM ware. At least thats my opinion. I think vm ware has full documentation on their site some where, it might be a place to start. > > Donald G wrote: >> I have just had a frustrating time trying to install VM ware on my suse linux machine. Where can I find the instructions I need to install, configure and start VMware? Whenever something goes wrong, I cry to my friend who leads me thru it, but I need to learn to do it by myself >> HELP! >> Donald >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Gslug-general mailing list >> Gslug-general@gslug.org >> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081130/417209e4/attachment.htm From chronomex at gmail.com Sun Nov 30 08:40:12 2008 From: chronomex at gmail.com (Duncan Smith) Date: Sun Nov 30 08:36:12 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Re: virual box In-Reply-To: <501173.72096.qm@web57607.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <871075.13673.qm@web57613.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <49328007.7070005@gmail.com> <983641.76933.qm@web57607.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4932847D.5040503@gmail.com> <628413.24590.qm@web57608.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <49328F52.7050008@gmail.com> <501173.72096.qm@web57607.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20081130164011.GA1774@5.7.5.5.6.6.6.6.0.2.1.e164.arpa> http://kitenet.net/~joey/blog/entry/thread_patterns/ > Some patterns are very simple. For example, this is the "take it to > private email" pattern. <.< >.> *ducks* On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 06:44:26AM -0800, Donald G wrote: > I downloaded the users manual for virtual box, but am lost as to how > to install it on suse. Can you tell me how to get started? > > The software doesn't take much space. VM ware is over 500 Mb! I > have a lot of trouble running VM ware. Hope that Virtual box is > easier to run > >> From: james michael >>> Donald G wrote: >>>> From: James Michael >>>>> Donald G wrote: >>>>>> From: James Michael >>>>>>> Donald G wrote: -- .oO0Oo. O _-_ O _____ O | | O /_,-,_\ Duncan B. Smith O /__ __\ O / @ \ +1 206-279-2659 O - O +-----+ ??OOO?? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081130/fa3bdc74/attachment.pgp From paul-bartell at ubuntu.com Sun Nov 30 15:24:52 2008 From: paul-bartell at ubuntu.com (Paul Bartell) Date: Sun Nov 30 15:21:32 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Wifi SIP phone Message-ID: <2b5bab0f0811301524hc3b0dc8pc2be81f2174ba47@mail.gmail.com> Can anyone vouch for a specific wifi based SIP phone as being a good one? -- Random quote of the week/month/whenever i get to updating it: "Opportunity knocked. My doorman threw him out." - Adrienne Gusoff "At school you don't get parole, good behavior only brings a longer sentence." - The History Boys From pierre at pham-phu.net Sun Nov 30 16:06:19 2008 From: pierre at pham-phu.net (Pierre Pham-Phu) Date: Sun Nov 30 16:02:56 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Wifi SIP phone In-Reply-To: <2b5bab0f0811301524hc3b0dc8pc2be81f2174ba47@mail.gmail.com> References: <2b5bab0f0811301524hc3b0dc8pc2be81f2174ba47@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1336b8a0811301606r77ac0f16m49bc43c2f41356cb@mail.gmail.com> I like the Nokia phones. Most of the Nokia phones with wifi can do SIP. To check if a Nokia phone has voip you can go to http://www.forum.nokia.com/devices/matrix_all_1.html and check if it has "Voip" in its "Connectivity" section. Looks like Nokia phones are not as affordable in the US as in Europe though. I've checked on ebay and found an "almost new" E61i for about $200. I personnally have an E90. On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 12:24 AM, Paul Bartell wrote: > Can anyone vouch for a specific wifi based SIP phone as being a good one? > > -- > Random quote of the week/month/whenever i get to updating it: > "Opportunity knocked. My doorman threw him out." - Adrienne Gusoff > > "At school you don't get parole, good behavior only brings a longer > sentence." - The History Boys > _______________________________________________ > Gslug-general mailing list > Gslug-general@gslug.org > http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081201/b30c23c3/attachment.htm From davidm777 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 30 17:33:35 2008 From: davidm777 at yahoo.com (David) Date: Sun Nov 30 17:30:14 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] virual box Message-ID: <529231.87649.qm@web53704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Sent it Donald, thought it might help the archives, too. --- On Sun, 11/30/08, David wrote: From: David Subject: Re: [Gslug-general] virual box To: "Donald G" Date: Sunday, November 30, 2008, 7:21 AM First, try your YaST/YaST2 gui installer.? That's your best bet. If not that, goto: http://en.opensuse.org/VirtualBox_Installation ? - it's SuSE's information page on installing VirtualBox. There is more, helpful documentation one directory previous: http://en.opensuse.org/VirtualBox David --- On Sun, 11/30/08, Donald G wrote: From: Donald G Subject: [Gslug-general] virual box To: "james michael" Cc: gslug-general@gslug.org Date: Sunday, November 30, 2008, 6:44 AM I downloaded the users manual for virtual box, but am lost as to how to install it on suse.?? Can you tell me how to get started? The software doesn't take much space.?? VM ware is over 500 Mb!?? I have a lot of trouble running VM ware.? Hope that Virtual box is easier to run From: james michael To: Donald G Cc: gslug-general@gslug.org Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 9:04:18 PM Subject: Re: [Gslug-general] linux administration www.virtualbox.org It's by sun. Donald G wrote: No offense, but I meant what is the web site for virtual box??? I accidently googled for VM box because I got confused. I found "Virtualbox.com"??? All these virtual software sites gets confusing. From: James Michael To: Donald G Cc: gslug-general@gslug.org Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 8:18:05 PM Subject: Re: [Gslug-general] linux administration http://www.vmware.com/support/pubs/ No offense but next time just google it. Donald G wrote: > sounds good, what is their web site? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* James Michael > *To:* Donald G > *Cc:* gslug-general@gslug.org > *Sent:* Sunday, November 30, 2008 7:59:03 PM > *Subject:* Re: [Gslug-general] linux administration > > I use virtual box as it seems to be a bit easier then VM ware. At least thats my opinion. I think vm ware has full documentation on their site some where, it might be a place to start. > > Donald G wrote: >> I have just had a frustrating time trying to install VM ware on my suse linux machine.? Where can I find the instructions I need to install, configure and start VMware?? Whenever something goes wrong, I cry to my friend who leads me thru it, but I need to learn to do it by myself >> HELP! >> Donald >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Gslug-general mailing list >> Gslug-general@gslug.org >> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > _______________________________________________ Gslug-general mailing list Gslug-general@gslug.org http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081130/655f94c4/attachment.html From dlg_grdnr7 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 30 19:51:24 2008 From: dlg_grdnr7 at yahoo.com (Donald G) Date: Sun Nov 30 19:48:03 2008 Subject: [Gslug-general] Re: virual box References: <871075.13673.qm@web57613.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <49328007.7070005@gmail.com> <983641.76933.qm@web57607.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4932847D.5040503@gmail.com> <628413.24590.qm@web57608.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <49328F52.7050008@gmail.com> <501173.72096.qm@web57607.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4932FD97.5020300@gmail.com> Message-ID: <968609.18733.qm@web57606.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Hi James, It appears I made another mistake. The list shows the download for SLES (server) but not for SLED (Suse Enterprise Linux Desktop). Unless I am mistaken, I think I am out of luck. Can you find the download for SLED (desktop)? Thanks, Donald teacher in Beijing China ________________________________ From: James Michael To: Donald G Sent: Monday, December 1, 2008 4:54:47 AM Subject: Re: virual box Ok here it is step by step, Launch program, hit the light blue new button that looks like a ball with pickers on it. Follow the wizzard then start the VB after you have finished the New Wizzard. You should be prompted on how to proceed with your new VB, tell it you want to mount a cd image and point to the suse cd image on your computer, OR if you have a suse cd then you may mount a non-virtual cd drive. After this it should be linux as usual. Donald G wrote: I downloaded the users manual for virtual box, but am lost as to how to install it on suse. Can you tell me how to get started? The software doesn't take much space. VM ware is over 500 Mb! I have a lot of trouble running VM ware. Hope that Virtual box is easier to run ________________________________ From: james michael To: Donald G Cc: gslug-general@gslug.org Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 9:04:18 PM Subject: Re: [Gslug-general] linux administration www.virtualbox.org It's by sun. Donald G wrote: No offense, but I meant what is the web site for virtual box? I accidently googled for VM box because I got confused. I found "Virtualbox.com" All these virtual software sites gets confusing. ________________________________ From: James Michael To: Donald G Cc: gslug-general@gslug.org Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 8:18:05 PM Subject: Re: [Gslug-general] linux administration http://www.vmware.com/support/pubs/ No offense but next time just google it. Donald G wrote: > sounds good, what is their web site? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* James Michael > *To:* Donald G > *Cc:* gslug-general@gslug.org > *Sent:* Sunday, November 30, 2008 7:59:03 PM > *Subject:* Re: [Gslug-general] linux administration > > I use virtual box as it seems to be a bit easier then VM ware. At least thats my opinion. I think vm ware has full documentation on their site some where, it might be a place to start. > > Donald G wrote: >> I have just had a frustrating time trying to install VM ware on my suse linux machine. Where can I find the instructions I need to install, configure and start VMware? Whenever something goes wrong, I cry to my friend who leads me thru it, but I need to learn to do it by myself >> HELP! >> Donald >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Gslug-general mailing list >> Gslug-general@gslug.org >> http://lists.gslug.org/mailman/listinfo/gslug-general > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ifokr.org/pipermail/gslug-general/attachments/20081130/7db256af/attachment-0001.htm